Where To For Club Rugby? The Real Third Tier.

[hifflepiff]

I loved the NRC, but it’s not coming back, too much politics involved to reinvigorate that.

But I think there’s some real merit in expanding the Club Championship, obviously they can’t all play each other so proposing a concept similar to that used in the European Champions and Challenge Cup.

Could easily be a 5 or 6 week tournament following the club rugby season, that would be 3 or 4 pool games followed by a knock out finals series.

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I don't mind this structure but I think it would be better to only have 1 post season comp rather than two.

4 pools of 4

Top 5 from Shute Shield
Top 5 from QPR
Top 2 from Dewar
Top 2 from John I Dent
Top 2 from WA Premier

Top 2 from each pools go into knock-out phase.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10980786

Article on it from the ABC. Says each player pays at least $2,000 each a season to participate and Ice Hockey Australia only provides $9,000 in funding all season.

Randwick would have an aneurysm if RA only offered $9k and god knows the amount of knives that would be sharpened in the media.

Yeah, that's kind of my point. It's a niche sport that makes it work. We're a much bigger sport with a much bigger profile. There's no reason why we couldn't do something like what Adam84 has proposed and without the need to have players contribute.

 

[Adam84]

I don't mind this structure but I think it would be better to only have 1 post season comp rather than two.

4 pools of 4

Top 5 from Shute Shield
Top 5 from QPR
Top 2 from Dewar
Top 2 from John I Dent
Top 2 from WA Premier

Top 2 from each pools go into knock-out phase.

I suggested something similar previously and the consensus was that the Victorian and WA clubs wouldn’t be competitive with the SS and QPR clubs, potentially the ACT clubs as well

 

[dru]

How are you proposing allocating the Super talent that is not playing international? How do returning internationals needing game time get allocated?

Or is it simply an inter club comp with no real contribution to:
1. development for the next season Super franchises
2. development of up and coming club players in a higher quality comp with super players
3. providing backup to the international team

 

[Rebels3]

Yeah, that's kind of my point. It's a niche sport that makes it work. We're a much bigger sport with a much bigger profile. There's no reason why we couldn't do something like what Adam84 has proposed and without the need to have players contribute.

That’s the thing, someone has to contribute money to it. If it’s not the players it’s going to be the union. Having a nationwide club comp does nothing to develop players as it’s the same level that they are already playing in during their normal seasons or if it’s a selected few teams in the comp, then it will just create super clubs that will thrash every team in their normal seasons because all the talent joins them to be exposed at a national level.

I can’t see the benefit to the wallabies or to the super clubs. It would be developed to appease clubs that should be amateur in almost everything they do.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

That’s the thing, someone has to contribute money to it. If it’s not the players it’s going to be the union. Having a nationwide club comp does nothing to develop players as it’s the same level that they are already playing in during their normal seasons or if it’s a selected few teams in the comp, then it will just create super clubs that will thrash every team in their normal seasons because all the talent joins them to be exposed at a national level.

I can’t see the benefit to the wallabies or to the super clubs. It would be developed to appease clubs that should be amateur in almost everything they do.

Yeah. You will have Super clubs that talent will gravitate toward. And that's kind of the point. If a national club comp were established there are going to be winners and losers. It would sit above the current competitions and talent should move toward them.

That's why I've suggested RA putting out criteria for entry.

 

[Pfitzy]

What SS and Hospital cup should try aim to be is the leading Sydney and Brisbane based competitions and own the local tribalism that is lost in a National comp.

Speaking from Sydney: the local tribalism starts and ends at the club gates of Shute Shield, and that won't change.

Premier Rugby in Sydney is very impressed with itself, while caring very little for the rest of the game. They're not alone in that, as everyone circles the wagons and looks after their little patch. That's rugby, unfortunately.

You simply won't get people from Sydney Subbies clubs lining up to support a national club competition, because those Premier Clubs have for so long been an unnecessary drain on players, while actively sledging Subbies as "mickey mouse".

Just so they can have another bunch of 4th and 5th Grade benchies paying rego to help stop their cowshed club rooms falling down around them.

 

[Brumby Runner]

politics will prevent any new version of the NRC for at least another 10 years, it's just not happening.

building on club rugby is the only feasible concept IMO

Reckon the NRC would work again if RA set a qualification that Wallaby selection is dependent on NRC involvement.

 

[TSR]

What are our aims for the third tier? To me, the aims are (not necessarily in order)

1. Help develop/ID talent to Super Rugby Level
2. Create a product which helps attract people to rugby
3. Operate in a financially stable manner

IMO the NRC addressed point 1 far better than a national club comp would.

It fell down at 2, but I’m not sure it feel down anymore than a national club comp would. I’m not sure how a national club comp will attract any more casual followers than the NRC did. I get that you might get better crowds at the games because these clubs already have followings but I also see issues with the clubs that get done over in the process

3. It essentially failed at being financially stable, and would be worse going forward unless a new deal can be formed which generates additional revenue to cover its costs. A national club comp MIGHT be cheaper if it was pretty narrow and involved mainly Brisbane & Sydney clubs, but it seems to me it would almost be impossible for this theoretical comp to be both NATIONAL & financially sustainable. I don’t see any major advantages here over yet NRC model and, in fact, it would probably be worse as far as I can see unless you just drafted all the left over Super Rugby pros into the sides - in which case, it seems to me, you’d be creating a pseudo NRC anyway

I’m struggling to see any real benefit to the National Club comp. It seems to me it has some of the same issues, without any significant upside.

 

[Adam84]

How are you proposing allocating the Super talent that is not playing international? How do returning internationals needing game time get allocated?

Or is it simply an inter club comp with no real contribution to:
1. development for the next season Super franchises
2. development of up and coming club players in a heifer quality comp with super players
3. providing backup to the international team

They are allocated no different to now.
I strongly disagree with the suggestion that Club Rugby doesn’t provide development of players.

More to the point, the suggestion of a club championship is due to no other alternative. I’m not suggesting this is better at development then the NRC. But the NRC isn’t coming back any time soon, no one will be willing to touch that in the next few years at least.

 

[TSR]

It just seems to me to be a proposal to burn up more cash on an appeasement policy for a small group at the risk of just further alienating the broader rugby community?

 

[Adam84]

It just seems to me to be a proposal to burn up more cash on an appeasement policy for a small group at the risk of just further alienating the broader rugby community?

I think it’s a scalable option and all proposals cost money, I also don’t believe a club championship would alienate the broader rugby community

 

[TSR]

I think it’s a scalable option and all proposals cost money, I also don’t believe a club championship would alienate the broader rugby community

I can’t see how it will be cheaper than the NRC if it involves teams from ACT, WA & Victoria.

And if it doesn’t, I think there is considerable risk that it’ll be seen as a snub to those rugby communities.

 

[kiap]

I think it’s a scalable option and all proposals cost money

Are you watching the annual reporting?

I also don’t believe a club championship would alienate the broader rugby community

It still needs plenty more to bleed before it washes the slate.

Don't underestimate the various rivulets of hate.

 

[Drew]

In Sydney, who with higher aspirations than club rugby would go to Two Blues, et al if they have zero chance of competing or showcasing their talent? It would just creates a bigger drain on the weaker clubs.

 

[Adam84]

Are you watching the annual reporting?

Clearly i am, hence why i think any suggestion that any iteration of the NRC returning is just fantasy, the only feasible concept IMO is some for of Club Championship.

I'm not suggesting what i put up was the solution right now, but a scalable option of that could be run this year and fill a gap in the broadcast calendar.

 

[kiap]

I'm not suggesting what i put up was the solution right now, but a scalable option of that could be run this year and fill a gap in the broadcast calendar.

So it is revenue positive?

 

[TSR]

Clearly i am, hence why i think any suggestion that any iteration of the NRC returning is just fantasy, the only feasible concept IMO is some for of Club Championship.

I'm not suggesting what i put up was the solution right now, but a scalable option of that could be run this year and fill a gap in the broadcast calendar.

And to be clear Adam - I’m not having a dig at you. Your proposal is well thought through and constructed and I understand your point - regardless of the pros & cons of the NRC it would seem highly unlikely to return.

The critics of the NRC point out it was a money pit that never achieved any significant fan engagement. Quite probably fair - but at least it served a purpose with regards to development of players. I’d like to know how any format of the Club Championship would be significantly better on any front. I don’t see it personally.

 

[Adam84]

So it is revenue positive?

When you actually settle on what a 3rd tier concept looks like let me know then we can do the financial analysis. However, this concept could be revenue neutral if scaled appropriately.

And to be clear Adam - I’m not having a dig at you. Your proposal is well thought through and constructed and I understand your point - regardless of the pros & cons of the NRC it would seem highly unlikely to return.

The critics of the NRC point out it was a money pit that never achieved any significant fan engagement. Quite probably fair - but at least it served a purpose with regards to development of players. I’d like to know how any format of the Club Championship would be significantly better on any front. I don’t see it personally.

Club Championship isn't better then the NRC, but that's not the point. The point is that a Club Championship is better than nothing else, and right now that's the most likely outcome because NRC is not getting reinvigorated.

 

[TSR]

And my point Adam is that my question isn’t directed to you. There are people who seem to think that the National Club Comp is a superior product. My question is to them.