Where to for Super Rugby?

[Adam84]

I have asked that to Hoggy. If NZR is so bad for RA, why are they even talking? Mate, if that is what is best for RA I don't mind, I just don't believe it is. But as I say, anyone suggesting it up to NZR take a financial hit is crazy. Unlike most on this forum I have been quite involved in grassroots rugby both in NZ and Aus , and know which one looks after grassroots rugby better, and so it goes up through to Super etc. let's both go seperate ways completely, RA doesn't get rights to show NZ rugby as part of their tv deals, and vice versa. So RA could get money off Sky NZ if they wanted to broadcast Aus rugby, and NZ rugby would have to do same with Stan or Fox etc. Or failing that let RugbyPass be streamed in Aus. Then there would be no blame.

Dan, there is an opportunity for both parties to develop a concept which provides mutual benefits and long term health to the region to combat other codes, however a trans-Tasman tournament which results in lop-sided results and fan disengagement is not that. Going it alone doesn’t achieve that either.

However the current concept and resource distribution is nothing more then a short term cash grab to suit individual needs and doesn’t address the systematic failings of rugby in the region, and if that is the concept which continues to be pushed then the regional focus of promoting the game is dead, and the lesser of two evils is that Australian Rugby should go alone.

Australian rugby fans want to have a tournament with NZ, its just that the terms of offer are going to provide a shit outcome and seem to benefit NZ more then OZ.

 

[Dan54]

So what do you mean current recourse distribution is nothing more tha a cash grab? Don't RA keep all their TV income, and NZ keep all theirs? Isn't that how it should be? Surely you not suggesting that NZR and RA should amalgamate? I see NZR and RA are both seemingly trying to bring in PI and Fijian teams to strengthen rugby there. I know there are some that suggest NZ should continue to develop players and send them to Aus teams, I don't agree with that.
I know a lot on here say RA has the bigger market etc etc, so will be making more money, I don't think they should share it with NZ, I would never suggest that. And yet supposedly NZR is helping Drua and MP (Moana Pasifika) with costs to run teams, so maybe......
What terms are on offer at moment, and if offer doesn't suit RA ,they will turn it down, so really there is not much problem.

My only argument is, if RA is not in a very strong place, that is not NZR's fault,and if NZR is in a bad (or good) place etc, surely that is because it is well run better?

 

[Dan54]

Apart from diminishing the occasion, it also diminishes the jersey. The number of players who are Wallabies seems to be far more numerous than in my distant memories.

Sometimes it seems like Super Rugby games have more Wallabies than non Wallabies starting the game for both teams.

Less games adds intensity and makes the jersey mean more

That will get very little argument from either side of the tasman lb, the feeling is too many tests are played a year, but it seems the alternative is less money to run the game in any tier 1 country.
Also the other problem is tragics like me keep watching the games, so TV keeps paying for them. In NZ before professionalism came in there were probably only 3-4 tests in country a year, and 2-4 at most overseas, so jerseys were harder to get.

 

[dru]

Dan, there is an opportunity for both parties to develop a concept which provides mutual benefits and long term health to the region to combat other codes, however a trans-Tasman tournament which results in lop-sided results and fan disengagement is not that. Going it alone doesn’t achieve that either.

NZ score here? Fail.
RA score here? Patience worn thin.

Australian rugby fans want to have a tournament with NZ, its just that the terms of offer are going to provide a shit outcome and seem to benefit NZ more then OZ.

Adam, I see it as a bitter pill for NZR who must feel ripped off by Aus fail to be competitive. But looking forward rather than in the rear vision mirror you are 100% correct. No doubt NZR are in a position right now to reap the harvest of their achievements in terms of cash opportunities. They should be cautious about conflating that with being in a good position going forward should things not suit RA.

NZR is in a shite position here but apparently refuse to actually look at it. Their position is that if RA is not satisfied then NZ run alone for the club pro comp. Or somehow harness that "international market" with 5, maybe 6 teams.

And the whole process has been utterly tedious with the NZ "overtures" to RA neither addressing RA's requirements nor proposing anything like a reasonable opportunity for competition success. Fail on all metrics.

The only strength in RA's "place" right now was the success of the domestic comp. Lock it in. Move on. Let NZ catch up when they see it - or prove their international market outside of the ABs and without SA, Argentina, Australia or even Japan. The concept is farcical without being able to rely on Australia, but increasingly Australia can not afford to move forward with Kiwi ground rules.

 

[Dan54]

So dru, do you think that RA will go it alone? Or if not and they agree to play a 12 team comp, who will you blame? NZR or RA?
I see all the answers you all have come back to NZR's fault and noone actually think the answer is for Aus teams to get better?

 

[hifflepiff]

So dru, do you think that RA will go it alone? Or if not and they agree to play a 12 team comp, who will you blame? NZR or RA?
I see all the answers you all have come back to NZR's fault and noone actually think the answer is for Aus teams to get better?

If RA decide to can Super AU and play a 12 team comp with NZ they should absolutely be blamed for being complete idiots.

However, at this point I'm choosing to hold out hope that they can see the bleeding obvious.

 

[Adam84]

So what do you mean current recourse distribution is nothing more tha a cash grab? Don't RA keep all their TV income, and NZ keep all theirs? Isn't that how it should be? Surely you not suggesting that NZR and RA should amalgamate? I see NZR and RA are both seemingly trying to bring in PI and Fijian teams to strengthen rugby there. I know there are some that suggest NZ should continue to develop players and send them to Aus teams, I don't agree with that.
I know a lot on here say RA has the bigger market etc etc, so will be making more money, I don't think they should share it with NZ, I would never suggest that. And yet supposedly NZR is helping Drua and MP (Moana Pasifika) with costs to run teams, so maybe..
What terms are on offer at moment, and if offer doesn't suit RA ,they will turn it down, so really there is not much problem.

My only argument is, if RA is not in a very strong place, that is not NZR's fault,and if NZR is in a bad (or good) place etc, surely that is because it is well run better?

Sorry but part of my comment are you confused/disagree with?

 

[Adam84]

So dru, do you think that RA will go it alone? Or if not and they agree to play a 12 team comp, who will you blame? NZR or RA?
I see all the answers you all have come back to NZR's fault and noone actually think the answer is for Aus teams to get better?

The questions are simple Dan, do you think a TT which lacks competitiveness is:
Good for NZ?
Good for Australia?
Good for health of the game in the region long term?
How do you suggest the lack of competitiveness is resolved?

 

[Dan54]

Sorry but part of my comment are you confused/disagree with?

The whole lot, recourses? I not sure what recourses you want split.

 

[Dan54]

The questions are simple Dan, do you think a TT which lacks competitiveness is:
Good for NZ?
Good for Australia?
Good for health of the game in the region long term?
How do you suggest the lack of competitiveness is resolved?

No I don't, but I don't believe a TT comp does lack competitiveness, I honestly believe a team like the Reds could win a TT comp. Same as I think the Moana Pasifika and Drua who will struggle to be competitive will be good for rugby in region, or are you against them too? Honest question.
Do you reckon it will do better for rugby in Australia if Reds/Rebels/etc etc won a TT super comp, or Super Au? I say TT.
Anyway that's what I believe, and you believe it better to have seperate comps, fair enough. Because if it so uncompetitive as some say, the only way to make it competitive is surely for Aus teams get to the strength that the Reds and Brumbies are.
In saying that I can see a stupid compromise comp ending up being played, something like 8 team finals, or (which I don't find as offensive even if many do) a comp where 2 Aus teams guaranteed of a semi final berth or something along those lines.

 

[Adam84]

No I don't, but I don't believe a TT comp does lack competitiveness, I honestly believe a team like the Reds could win a TT comp. Same as I think the Moana Pasifika and Drua who will struggle to be competitive will be good for rugby in region, or are you against them too? Honest question.
Do you reckon it will do better for rugby in Australia if Reds/Rebels/etc etc won a TT super comp, or Super Au? I say TT.
Anyway that's what I believe, and you believe it better to have seperate comps, fair enough. Because if it so uncompetitive as some say, the only way to make it competitive is surely for Aus teams get to the strength that the Reds and Brumbies are.
In saying that I can see a stupid compromise comp ending up being played, something like 8 team finals, or (which I don't find as offensive even if many do) a comp where 2 Aus teams guaranteed of a semi final berth or something along those lines.

How do you see Australian clubs as a whole(not just one team) been competitive, given they weren’t competitive at all in 2021, there is no NRC and salary cap Is dropping again for next year?

 

[Adam84]

The whole lot, recourses? I not sure what recourses you want split.

Really.. interesting.

So you think that Australia and New Zealand can’t work together on a concept which benefits rugby in the region? And you think that Super Rugby has no failings as a competition?

 

[Dan54]

How do you see Australian clubs as a whole(not just one team) been competitive, given they weren’t competitive at all in 2021, there is no NRC and salary cap Is dropping again for next year?

Y
To be quite honest no I don't, but I don't see NSW, Rebels being competitive with Reds etc either. But I do see teams like NSW getting more competitive, I was at all Reds games a few years back when they got beaten by almost evryone too.
I do agree NRC (or even Ben Darwins idea) is what is required, and have siad that time and again.
I don't actually know what the salary cap is being dropped too, so can't comment on that, but I have been told on here it higher than NZ's anyway.

 

[Dan54]

Really.. interesting.

So you think that Australia and New Zealand can’t work together on a concept which benefits rugby in the region? And you think that Super Rugby has no failings as a competition?

Of course RA and NZR can and I assume are working on a concept, if they couldn't there wouldn't be a comp. Don't know if you noticed about Moana Pasifika and Drua coming in? Isn't that working on a concept that benefits rugby in the region?

 

[Adam84]

Y
To be quite honest no I don't, but I don't see NSW, Rebels being competitive with Reds etc either. But I do see teams like NSW getting more competitive, I was at all Reds games a few years back when they got beaten by almost evryone too.
I do agree NRC (or even Ben Darwins idea) is what is required, and have siad that time and again.
I don't actually know what the salary cap is being dropped too, so can't comment on that, but I have been told on here it higher than NZ's anyway.

Reds rebuilt on the back of a NRC, but now there is no NRC, Salary Cap is going down and squad positions have been reduced.

And you’re right Australian teams as a whole won’t be competitive, and that’s not going to change unless funding and player availability changes…Which it apparently won’t..

so what do you expect Australian fans to do, support teams who lose every week? Can you not understand how Australian fan are despondent with this TT concept?

 

[Dan54]

Reds rebuilt on the back of a NRC, but now there is no NRC, Salary Cap is going down and squad positions have been reduced.

And you’re right Australian teams as a whole won’t be competitive, and that’s not going to change unless funding and player availability changes…Which it apparently won’t..

so what do you expect Australian fans to do, support teams who lose every week?

I don't know perhaps you should ask the Tahs and Rebels supporters how it is in Super Au?

Or Drua? Or do you not think they should be there?
And NZ can't change funding for Aus teams, isn't that up to RA to give them a bigger cut of TV deal?

 

[Adam84]

I don't know perhaps you should ask the Tahs and Rebels supporters how it is in Super Au?

You don’t know whether Australian fans should be expected to support teams who lose every week, or you don’t want to answer the question?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I read the article a week or so ago , but didn't think I better quote it as Adam84 has assured us all the writer Paul Cully is a NZR stooge
But honestly, you still doing the same, blaming NZR, it's like you keep saying that poor RA has had no say in Sanzaar etc etc, because like always it's not RA's fault, because you can either blame NZR etc. So RA seems to be still talking about a 12 team comp, you saying that's all NZR's fault. If it is better for Aus rugby , why doesn't Hamish and Leap Frog just go it alons??
The artcle is great from a point of view but I ask you has this not been done for last while?
Arkwright - who has worked with US Major League franchises, an EPL club and the NSW Blues in State of Origin - believes that should open the door for a conference-style system that would produce at least one Australian semifinalist,
That is exactly what has happened for last 10 years or so that you have saying has killed the comp!
And I ask again, why aren't RA just going alone if it so bad for Aus rugby.
And if you so sure this writer is correct red this part.
Arkwright believes Super Rugby lost its right to be called “the best competition in the world” in about 2005, and has been caught up or surpassed by the Top 14 in France and the English Premiership, while he said the newly minted United Rugby Championship – with South African sides joining the old Pro 14 –would generate excitement in the northern hemisphere.
He says Super rugby lost it's right to being the best comp in the world in 2005, and what happened in 2005 and after? RA and SA decided they needed to add teams, NZR were just staying the same. So who stuffed Super rugby? Tell me again it's all NZR's fault and poor RA has been told what they have to do.
“NZ Rugby should consider themselves as the saviours of the game and take the financial hit,” he said.
And I call this bullshit!! Why should grassroots rugby , you know the kids etc on Saturday morning etc have to suffer because RA has f***ed the game up and they need more money. Isn't it up yo WR (World Rugby) to save the game?

I would add I have read the Ben Darwin theory (as posted by Joe King)before and thought it made huge sense about making Aus super teams better, but no you want NZR to do it!!

No Dan NZRU have taken a interesting view to developing a super rugby competition and you are just too bias to see the facts they have contributed heavily to the death of a decent super rugby competition which cries out for a franchise model like MLR.

Professional pro competition structures should not be left in the hands of design and management by national rugby organisations focussed on competing agendas outside of making the actual best pro competition it can be - whether this is NZRU or RA...

 

[Dan54]

No Dan NZRU have taken a interesting view to developing a super rugby competition and you are just too bias to see the facts they have contributed heavily to the death of a decent super rugby competition which cries out for a franchise model like MLR.

Professional pro competition structures should not be left in the hands of design and management by national rugby organisations focussed on competing agendas outside of making the actual best pro competition it can be - whether this is NZRU or RA.

Stop with the defence of NZRU for super rugby as they with the RA's and South Africa Rugby Union bodies have killed pro rugby. .This needs to be put in the hands of professionals not amateur national rugby boards/structures.

I don't defend NZR , they should of probably stood up to SA and RA when they insisted that the comp needed more teams, my argument is you keep blaming them, and I saying, no all were complicit in downgrading the comp. Even your own CEO says what hurt the comp was too many teams being bought in and countried using it as a development comp instead a top flight comp it was started as. This new system is going to be same.
I agree it needs to be put in the hands of a seperate board, but they have to have a comp to run. I think maybe one of the problems is unlike when Super was originally set up the individual boards are tied into Broadcast arrangements, where as originally Sanzar (as it was then) sold the rights etc. But SA felt they more money was coming form there so everyone had to set up own TV agreements. That isn't going to change as everyone signed in now.

I do see a conference idea will be used RN, I know it's going to end up like it has over the last years, which is basically a conference system, with guaranteed teams in final. Doesn't give the comp credibility, but it's what it is.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I don't defend NZR , they should of probably stood up to SA and RA when they insisted that the comp needed more teams, my argument is you keep blaming them, and I saying, no all were complicit in downgrading the comp. Even your own CEO says what hurt the comp was too many teams being bought in and countried using it as a development comp instead a top flight comp it was started as. This new system is going to be same.
I agree it needs to be put in the hands of a seperate board, but they have to have a comp to run. I think maybe one of the problems is unlike when Super was originally set up the individual boards are tied into Broadcast arrangements, where as originally Sanzar (as it was then) sold the rights etc. But SA felt they more money was coming form there so everyone had to set up own TV agreements. That isn't going to change as everyone signed in now.

I do see a conference idea will be used RN, I know it's going to end up like it has over the last years, which is basically a conference system, with guaranteed teams in final. Doesn't give the comp credibility, but it's what it is.

Hi Dan

I think the problem with super rugby was not a proper regional competition with South Africa and Argentina in the mix. Where we differ is super rugby failed by not being a regional competition that focussed on franchise model and more free flow of players and looking at how can make teams across a regional footprint stronger rather then a talent development focussed competition for the all blacks. NZRU as per the marketing expert take the lion share of the blame for this as they have the depth others don’t and as per the marketing expert they have lacked the vision how they could utilise that to make a better regional super rugby competition. But in fairness maybe with Sanzaar with South African involvement nzru hands were tied but now with South Africa and Argentina out of the mix now they can take the leadership and have the Vision for what is required to create a truly great regional super rugby competition we deserve.

Anyhow I know this is where we differ and I have to respect you and I have different views on this and neither seem likely to change our views on this. What we do agree though on though is yes let’s have a independent qualified commission who can design and run a competition and not having competing other agendas interfere with their approach to this. They can then work with RA and NZRU to try and align them on what is best for the competition. They would then decide with appropriate advise what is the best design for the competition and then try and work with RA and NZRU to make it work. Sounds easy doesn’t it (lol)..yes I think this independent body would have their work cut out.