Where to for Super Rugby?

[half]

WCR & WAM

I think the point others myself included are making about the PI issue is it seems to be following a typical Australian rugby scenario.

To illustrate one of my clients in his late 70’s now still speaks with huge pride that in his year he was a second rower for Parramatta High and as a state school they won the combined State School V Private Schools playoff.

If hard to imagine but back in the 60’s rugby was still the state directed and preferred winter sport in NSW state schools.

12 years ago PI islands & RL met at random times.

Over the last 12 years, slowly the relationship between PI and RL is growing at an ever increasing pace.

Old story 16 teams in league then add another 32 teams i.e SG Ball , Harrold Matthews.

League can also play an annual series and sell it, the ratings have been huge.

Essentially if league can add Oceania to its heartland states it near doubles it size.

For league Oceania is big time for international rugby its small cheese.

It has the look of how we lost the state schools, all over again.

As I said I think that’s why people are concerned as we appear to as always be doing nothing to react.

WAM

I would argue that given we are struggling to compete with the other codes as you correctly illustrated that its critical we have excellence in management to guide and direct us.

 

[wamberal]

Half,


I do not disagree in principle that we need "excellence in management". But I think it is absolutely indisputable that our code is a very strange beast. It is similar to soccer in that we are not the masters of our own destiny. But, unlike soccer, the rules and subsequent complexity of the game are a barrier to easy entry for new participants or viewers or supporters. And of course the other local competitors are both totally masters of their own destinies, in terms of the rules and also governance.


Anybody, it would not matter how "excellent" they are as a manager, who comes into a rugby management role who does not already understand our game from top to bottom and side to side will struggle, and I would be certain, would fail.


I suppose what I am saying is that "excellence" in management in our code includes a deep understanding of the game.

 

[wamberal]

Maybe not precisely that, but you’ve inferred it numerous times by suggesting the current clowns are the best suited for the job and they shouldn’t be sacked

I have simply pointed out, many, many times that most of the factors that affect the competitiveness and viability of our code are out of their hands.


That seems to be too complex a proposition for some of you to understand. Try harder.

 

[TOCC]

I have simply pointed out, many, many times that most of the factors that affect the competitiveness and viability of our code are out of their hands.


That seems to be too complex a proposition for some of you to understand. Try harder.

And we have pointed out, many, many times that the factors of the game which are in their control, are in disarray and poorly managed.

A proposition you seem to struggle to understand. Try harder.

 

[half]

WAM

Me thinks you confuse two separate issues into one.

We can have nay should have excellence in management, that the excellent management team will still struggle is accepted.

You said """ that "excellence" in management in our code includes a deep understanding of the game.""""

I would add equally as important arguably more important is a deep understanding of the Australian sporting landscape with experience in growing domestic competitions.

A CEO can always get advise from within rugby of its unique Australia issues.

Soccer appointed a Union then AFL and then League person , Basketball appointed a Tennis person,

To your specific argument pertaining to our size within the broader Australian sporting environment. Please accept yes as an answer in that I agree with you meaning mistakes are costly and margins are tight and the ARU management has lost a lot. Further the system or systems we have are a throw back to yester year and in need of massive change.

Essentially we can't afford an inefficient, incompetent management

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

WCR & WAM

I think the point others myself included are making about the PI issue is it seems to be following a typical Australian rugby scenario.

To illustrate one of my clients in his late 70’s now still speaks with huge pride that in his year he was a second rower for Parramatta High and as a state school they won the combined State School V Private Schools playoff.

If hard to imagine but back in the 60’s rugby was still the state directed and preferred winter sport in NSW state schools.

12 years ago PI islands & RL met at random times.

Over the last 12 years, slowly the relationship between PI and RL is growing at an ever increasing pace.

Old story 16 teams in league then add another 32 teams i.e SG Ball , Harrold Matthews.

League can also play an annual series and sell it, the ratings have been huge.

Essentially if league can add Oceania to its heartland states it near doubles it size.

For league Oceania is big time for international rugby its small cheese.

It has the look of how we lost the state schools, all over again.

As I said I think that’s why people are concerned as we appear to as always be doing nothing to react.

WAM

I would argue that given we are struggling to compete with the other codes as you correctly illustrated that its critical we have excellence in management to guide and direct us.

Mate, are you aware that the increasing numbers of PI heritage players in RL isn't a recent trend. It's one that has been growing since the late 1990s early 2000s particularly at a junior level. This newly imagined competition for talent isn't a recent phenomenon. Rugby League will be the destination of many because it offers more opportunity. I've known guys of PI heritage who grew up actively playing a supporting both but went with League because of this. It isn't new.

I'm not dismissing this as an issue either. We need to get our house in order and find means of competing for talent alongside RL in the region. It's no small feat. But I tend to think people are looking at this issue through a very narrow lens. On another forum people where stating that WR (World Rugby) wasn't providing the PIs with enough resources or giving them more games against T1 opposition.

It's all about perception because the above assertion of those posters isn't quite right. WR (World Rugby) have designated a little under $35m AUD to be invested in the PIs leading into Japan (which doesn't sound like much but per head in regards to registered players is higher than any other region I have found) and this year alone

1. Fiji have played - us, Scotland, Italy x2 and Ireland
2. Samoa have played - the ABs, Wales, Sotland and will play England this weekend and,

Only Tonga have missed out on as many marquee games playing only Wales and a lesser fixture against Japan last week. Which is unfortunate and needs to be sorted out
Regarding international RL and the PI's. Well, to put it simply. It's easier for them to be competitive in RL. The pool is far shallower than it is in Rugby. Most of these nations are artificially strengthened via heritage players from Aus or NZ. They are somewhat a victim of Rugby's quest to grow the game globally. There place as T2 powers in the game is beginning to see regular challengers emerging from new nations and regions.

 

[Braveheart81]

Regarding international RL and the PI's. Well, to put it simply. It's easier for them to be competitive in RL. The pool is far shallower than it is in Rugby. Most of these nations are artificially strengthened via heritage players from Aus or NZ.

In the league world cup, they are also on a far more level playing field in terms of the coming together of the teams. The PI rugby teams play far fewer tests a year and don't get the long camps that the tier 1 nations get. The Tongan league team is full of NRL players including a couple of the best players in the game. I don't think it really has anything to do with rugby league becoming more popular in the PIs or similar. It's mostly the same players as it always is except this time around a bunch of the high profile players opted to play for the country of their heritage rather than only doing that if they didn't make the Australian or NZ team.

 

[half]

WCR

You are being to defensive.

I fully accept and agree with your post above regarding games Australia play against PI nations.

My point is this, we cut a Super Rugby team, resulting in Australia having only 4 professional rugby teams.

League has 16, or 48 depending on how you count SG Ball and Harold Matthews. In addition their is leagues second division teams like Ryde Eastwood, St Marys etc.

We still hold the upper hand, but IMO if we don't create more positions for PI players then its only a matter of time before league becomes our equal and more than likely pass.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

In the league world cup, they are also on a far more level playing field in terms of the coming together of the teams. The PI rugby teams play far fewer tests a year and don't get the long camps that the tier 1 nations get. The Tongan league team is full of NRL players including a couple of the best players in the game. I don't think it really has anything to do with rugby league becoming more popular in the PIs or similar. It's mostly the same players as it always is except this time around a bunch of the high profile players opted to play for the country of their heritage rather than only doing that if they didn't make the Australian or NZ team.

Pretty much this. I tend to question whether the performances indicate true strength of the game on the PI's. Even Fiji who have been the best of the three for a number of years now (note I mentioned previously that this is the 3rd tournament in a row they have made the semi's) are bolstered by a number of Australia born and raised or at least raised players in their line up.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

WCR

You are being to defensive.

I fully accept and agree with your post above regarding games Australia play against PI nations.

My point is this, we cut a Super Rugby team, resulting in Australia having only 4 professional rugby teams.

League has 16, or 48 depending on how you count SG Ball and Harold Matthews. In addition their is leagues second division teams like Ryde Eastwood, St Marys etc.

We still hold the upper hand, but IMO if we don't create more positions for PI players then its only a matter of time before league becomes our equal and more than likely pass.

I think you may have read the tone of my post incorrectly. Nothing defensive about it.

Anyway, back to your post. I agree that cutting a Super Rugby squad has damaged our overall ability to provide the requisite opportunity in order to be more competitive. You won't see an argument from me there. It's part of the reason I'm supportive of the IPRC concept. More professional opportunities for players in our region. And if anyone doesn't think the franchises from this prospective league won't be looking at PI talent both from here and the Islands then I suggest you are wrong.

I do take issue with your numbers though. Rugby is bigger than just Australia. We aren't the only source of potential opportunity for PI players. Far from it. Let's break it done. First we have the three big NH leagues. The Pro14 will only ever take a small handful thanks to its structure being what it is. Similar to Super Rugby. A direct pathway more or less to the respective national squads. But beyond that. You have the AP which does look to import talent regularly and the Championship below that. Which yes, doesn't offer the same level of remuneration as the NRL or AP for that matter but wouldn't be that far off for most guys playing in the NSW/QLD Cup competitions below the NRL here.
Then there is France. A mass importer of PI talent. There are two fully professional tiers of 16 teams each. So another 36 clubs. Totaling 60 so far. Now, the French Union and LNR are looking to create a thrid tier of full time professional rugby in the near future as well. So don't surprised if there's another 12-16 clubs in France in the next 5 years looking for talent.

Those are your big ones. A couple you may not be aware of are the leagues with growing budgets such as the Romanian Supa Liga and the Spanish Division de Honor. The Supa Liga is full time professional while the Division de Honor is somewhere in between. Both leagues are beginning to look to recruit PI talent as well. Particularly the Supa Liga. No one going to become a millionaire but they'll earn a solid living from both.

There are others. MLR is definitely interested in looking toward the PI's for talent as it develops. Will likely need to in order to fill out all the potential rosters of the groups looking to get on board over there.

 

[Silverado]

^^^^
And Japan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

^^^^
And Japan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was going to include Japan but the post was getting out of hand.

 

[Quick Hands]

You are aware that this is Tonga's first time in the RLWC semi-finals and the third time in a row for Fiji. They made the semi's in the 2013 and 2008 editions as well.

I'm very aware of those things, hence I find these happenings a negative development for rugby. Not that those charged with running the game would have any idea about this threat.

 

[Quick Hands]

Hey, that gives me an idea. How about we give the next Soup Franchise to the Uniting Church??????

A fine organisation, but one that is closing down parishes more quickly that the ARU closes down super teams. The UC can't even staff their own schools with chaplains, but have to recriut from other denominations.

 

[half]

WCR

Sometimes I despair at the reaction of rugby folk. You IMO are one of the best and fairest posters on this site, and your knowledge on rugby is far far greater than mind, in fact better than most on this site. Your tag has air of authority a kinda should read poster.

Your last post extremely disappointed me, it’s like if someone says something bad or suggest a positive about another code especially league its becomes I prove you wrong.

I suggested league had 16 say division one teams, plus another 32 junior teams, plus a sizable let’s call it a second division which is mostly supported by poker machines.

Your response was to tell me how big union was compared to league, that in the northern hemisphere [NH] we have some sizable professional leagues and some growing semi-professional leagues. To the mix you could also add the other Super Rugby sides in NZ & SA.

Did you actually thing I was unaware of this. Or it needs saying especially in this forum.

The fact is through the NH leagues are not know for easily releasing their PI players for test matches but that is a side issue I guess.

My point was go back 12 years ago maybe 15, league’s presence in the PI nations was near non-existent the occasional player who could not make union.

I said we still hold the upper hand, but the advances made by league, have been huge. They have an ability to sell PI matches as they are rating. This is something we need to both be aware of and take action.

We have never been a pro-active code much more reactionary and well after the event. The signs are league is going to invest into the PI nation’s maybe event an annual series.

If this does come to pass i.e. league invest into PI, do we have a plan? Will we create a competition with more teams.

I acknowledge we are not talking about 5 minutes to midnight on this topic. Equally we would be foolish in the extreme to ignore it. To me its like history repeating itself when people like me said in the late 90’s we need more than 3 teams hidden away on subscription TV. The answer like now was look how big we are and league is so small.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'm very aware of those things, hence I find these happenings a negative development for rugby. Not that those charged with running the game would have any idea about this threat.

Really because the way wrote you made it seem like you thought it was some big breakthrough for Fiji.

An interesting fact about that Fijian squad. Of the total squad of 23. Fourteen of them are actually Australian born and raised with another one from NZ.

So despite making there third successive RLWC semi final they've only managed 8 Fijian locals. Which is actually twice as many local born players than Tonga.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

WCR

Sometimes I despair at the reaction of rugby folk. You IMO are one of the best and fairest posters on this site, and your knowledge on rugby is far far greater than mind, in fact better than most on this site. Your tag has air of authority a kinda should read poster.

Your last post extremely disappointed me, it’s like if someone says something bad or suggest a positive about another code especially league its becomes I prove you wrong.

I suggested league had 16 say division one teams, plus another 32 junior teams, plus a sizable let’s call it a second division which is mostly supported by poker machines.

Your response was to tell me how big union was compared to league, that in the northern hemisphere [NH] we have some sizable professional leagues and some growing semi-professional leagues. To the mix you could also add the other Super Rugby sides in NZ & SA.

Did you actually thing I was unaware of this. Or it needs saying especially in this forum.

The fact is through the NH leagues are not know for easily releasing their PI players for test matches but that is a side issue I guess.

My point was go back 12 years ago maybe 15, league’s presence in the PI nations was near non-existent the occasional player who could not make union.

I said we still hold the upper hand, but the advances made by league, have been huge. They have an ability to sell PI matches as they are rating. This is something we need to both be aware of and take action.

We have never been a pro-active code much more reactionary and well after the event. The signs are league is going to invest into the PI nation’s maybe event an annual series.

If this does come to pass i.e. league invest into PI, do we have a plan? Will we create a competition with more teams.

I acknowledge we are not talking about 5 minutes to midnight on this topic. Equally we would be foolish in the extreme to ignore it. To me its like history repeating itself when people like me said in the late 90’s we need more than 3 teams hidden away on subscription TV. The answer like now was look how big we are and league is so small.

First of all, could you please use the quote function. It just makes it smoother when responding.

You were arguing an apparent lack of opportunity as being the determining factor in RL's ascendancy in the PI's. Quoting the number of teams in Australia in comparison to Rugby. But I highlighted that Rugby is bigger than just here and there's a world of opportunity for PI players.

Even for those born and raised here. It happens now. Players are signed directly from club and NRC.

The biggest issue in PI Rugby in terms of on field performance is access to talent for longer periods. Not necessary opportunity.

Also, at least in regards to NSW Cup most of those teams are just extension of the NRL clubs. Not separate entities.

 

[wamberal]

For what its worth, the PI families that I know, and particularly their kids, actually seem to prefer the other code.



The response of the Tongan community to the recent loig game was apparently pretty overwhelming, both here and over there.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

For what its worth, the PI families that I know, and particularly their kids, actually seem to prefer the other code.



The response of the Tongan community to the recent loig game was apparently pretty overwhelming, both here and over there.

It's certainly easier for them to be able to consume with a high degree of visibility on FTA.

 

[wamberal]

It's certainly easier for them to be able to consume with a high degree of visibility on FTA.

Its not just being on FTA, it is the actual game.