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Where to for Super Rugby?

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Alan Cameron (40)
WCR

As I posted it's ""yesterday once more"", for me.

Rugby is hemorrhaging before our eyes.

Rather than look at systems like how do or does the ARU own the teams, sit on the SANZAR board, direct Australia and decide through SANZAR our cut and then hand it out.

Accountants and business folk call it a separation of power.

Why don’t we sell the teams?

Better still why don’t we sell the teams and let the owners of the teams develop their own competition???

In a rush we from the top down order a “”Nobody Really Cares”” competition.

When our biggest competitor starts to increase their market share in our territory we smugly say we are bigger.

We have FNG reduced our professional teams to 4 and we could even struggle to support that and yet we stick up for the status que and argue Mickey Mouse competitions will save us.

I getting a tad emotional and so I think I will take a break for a couple of weeks. Before I lose it.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Really because the way wrote you made it seem like you thought it was some big breakthrough for Fiji.

An interesting fact about that Fijian squad. Of the total squad of 23. Fourteen of them are actually Australian born and raised with another one from NZ.

So despite making there third successive RLWC semi final they've only managed 8 Fijian locals. Which is actually twice as many local born players than Tonga.

Yes, I can see it might read that way. Perhaps I should have written and essay with properly argued paragraphs and punctuation to make the meaning more clear. I try as far as possible to keep posts brief, but that has its downside. Regardless, I see the results as a significant breakthrough for rugby league into a demographic which was once overwhelmingly rugby but has become more and more aligned to league over the past two decades. Using your argument, and depending on what one defines as a "local", the same argument could be made about the Wallabies and some of our super sides. For example, of the current Wallaby squad, the following players might not meet your definition of local, (which is why any Australian rugby supporter should think twice before casting aspersions on the composition of other national teams in any sport): Faulkner NZ, Kepu NZ, Timani Tonga, Tui NZ, Uelsese NZ, Kerevi Fiji, Koroibete Fili, Kuridrani Fiji, Rona NZ Speight Fiji
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Pretty much this. I tend to question whether the performances indicate true strength of the game on the PI's. Even Fiji who have been the best of the three for a number of years now (note I mentioned previously that this is the 3rd tournament in a row they have made the semi's) are bolstered by a number of Australia born and raised or at least raised players in their line up.

Indeed, imagine a national team being bolstered by players born elsewhere. (Would insert a winking emoticon here but the site is on the verge of collapse)
See post 10642.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Yes, I can see it might read that way. Perhaps I should have written and essay with properly argued paragraphs and punctuation to make the meaning more clear. I try as far as possible to keep posts brief, but that has its downside. Regardless, I see the results as a significant breakthrough for rugby league into a demographic which was once overwhelmingly rugby but has become more and more aligned to league over the past two decades. Using your argument, and depending on what one defines as a "local", the same argument could be made about the Wallabies and some of our super sides. For example, of the current Wallaby squad, the following players might not meet your definition of local, (which is why any Australian rugby supporter should think twice before casting aspersions on the composition of other national teams in any sport): Faulkner NZ, Kepu NZ, Timani Tonga, Tui NZ, Uelsese NZ, Kerevi Fiji, Koroibete Fili, Kuridrani Fiji, Rona NZ Speight Fiji

Kepu was born in Sydney.

So out of a squad of 32 that were announced to tour 25 of them are local of them are Australian born. And with the exception of Kepu who moved to NZ as a young child 24 of them were raised here. You'll notice that I am through birth not counting Kepu as part of your list but I will add in Stephen Moore who you overlooked. He was born in Saudi Arabia.

That's still a damn sight better at only 25% of the squad compared to roughly 65% of the Fijian Rugby League squad and over 80% of the Tongan squad.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
Indeed, imagine a national team being bolstered by players born elsewhere. (Would insert a winking emoticon here but the site is on the verge of collapse)
See post 10642.

Ml63O.gif
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Kepu was born in Sydney.

So out of a squad of 32 that were announced to tour 25 of them are local of them are Australian born. And with the exception of Kepu who moved to NZ as a young child 24 of them were raised here. You'll notice that I am through birth not counting Kepu as part of your list but I will add in Stephen Moore who you overlooked. He was born in Saudi Arabia.

That's still a damn sight better at only 25% of the squad compared to roughly 65% of the Fijian Rugby League squad and over 80% of the Tongan squad.

</pIf we're going to split hairs as to place of birth, you can add Will Genia PNG and Karmichael Hunt NZ to your list. I'd hate for your statistics to be inaccurate. The fact remains, regardless of your attempts to obfuscate, that over the past 20 years league has made considerable headway in terms of attracting players of PI heritage. This will continue as the NRL offers economic opportunities that rugby can't. You may scoff at the Rugby League:WC and no doubt it doesn't compare with the RWC, but the trend is as clear as day - and it's not going in favour of rugby in the PI demographic. Whatever percentage of the Wallaby squad were born overseas, there's just as significant a part of Wallaby and super teams with Australian born players of PI heritage. Continuing leakage of this demographic to league is a negative for rugby regardless of how you spin it.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Just been going through 2017 Western Force Squad to see who is left that has not gone overseas, retired or got another oz Super Rugby gig.

I have those left as follows who have not had new homes / plans confirmed:
Props - Just Pek Cowan
Locks - Adam Coleman, Onehunga Havili, Ben Matwijow
Loose forwards: Angus Cottrell, Kane Koteka, Ben McCalman , Brynard Stander
Scrum-halves: Ryan Louwrens, Ian Prior, Michael Ruru, Mitch Short
Fly-halves: Peter Grant
Centres: Marcel Brache, Curtis Rona
Wingers: Chance Peni, Robbie Coleman
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
</pIf we're going to split hairs as to place of birth, you can add Will Genia PNG and Karmichael Hunt NZ to your list. I'd hate for your statistics to be inaccurate. The fact remains, regardless of your attempts to obfuscate, that over the past 20 years league has made considerable headway in terms of attracting players of PI heritage. This will continue as the NRL offers economic opportunities that rugby can't. You may scoff at the Rugby League:WC and no doubt it doesn't compare with the RWC, but the trend is as clear as day - and it's not going in favour of rugby in the PI demographic. Whatever percentage of the Wallaby squad were born overseas, there's just as significant a part of Wallaby and super teams with Australian born players of PI heritage. Continuing leakage of this demographic to league is a negative for rugby regardless of how you spin it.

Haha.........I actually thought about them after I posted. You also missed Taniela Tupou.

You're not actually posting anything here I disagree with. It's not a recent trend and is directly linked to our ability to offer the necessary opportunities to these guys coming through the relative systems. I actually have said this across a few post in this thread already. I'm just pointing out that the assertion of some that this RLWC has somehow fundamentally shifted the balance of power in the PIs themselves. I don't maintain that we have some sort of domain over the PIs in terms of sporting talent anyway but there is a degree of kneejerk reaction going on from some.

We need to address the opportunity issues. As I said to Half cutting a team certainly hasn;t helped. But we do have avenues in place that can be seen to be linking players of PI heritage to opportunities. Not just domestically.
 

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Alan Cameron (40)
WCR

I have calmed down now, taken a pill, had a drink, and said to myself we live in arguably the best part of the world, we are free, we have food to eat, water to drink and shelter. Also a reasonably lawful place.

We enjoy hot showers, and tools and gadgets and air travel never seen before in human kind.

Then there’s the net.

So in the grand scheme of things, I am talking first world pleasure sulking. To the starving man in Africa or overcrowding in many non-first world cities our issues must seem trivial.

Having said that Tim Cahill comes from Soma and Samoa has a reasonable and growing interest in soccer. Samoa also has a growing interest in league now. Tonga also has a growing interest in league. Fiji has some soccer players in the A-League and their interest in League is increasing.

Where we were once very much the King, we are loosing ground as you have acknowledged.

If our response is to cut a team an offer the Nobody Really Cares 8 week then the board should simply stand aside and let some folk with vision run it.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
Could someone direct me to someone who has (what they think to be) the best vision for rugby in Oz in terms of everything from structures, grassroots, juniors, professional rugby, governance, etc? Point me to links where they have written/spoken about it. I'm looking for someone who has an overall picture of what it could be like to have everything in place to make the Wallabies the best they can possibly be, not just now, but for the next 100 years, which means thinking about every cog in the system (participation numbers, domestic structures, etc). Is there anyone out there who has this sort of vision?
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
NZRU are doing a good job

As has been stated many times. They obviously had some hard heads that could break the provincial "resistance" to centralisation. That has not happened here, and to be honest, if someone like Kearns is the answer the ARU / RA are proposing, it seems the real question was never asked. Until RA can successfully centralise key components of rugby structure in Oz, little will change for the better. A figurehead like Kearns will bring jingoistic statements and little else, I fear.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Sadly, I say it again. There is no way that we could attract a strong enough candidate to take on this job.


Put yourself in the shoes of a potentially strong candidate. This could either be somebody who is on the way up, and would be looking for a position that is a platform on which he or she could consolidate and improve on the upward trajectory of their career path, OR it could be somebody who has made it as a seasoned and successful CEO of a similar sporting organisation. Either of these two candidates would need to have an in-depth understanding of the ins and outs of our game, either here, or in another challenging marketplace.

Why on earth would either of these two archetypes take on a role with an organisation that is obviously in disarray, and whose "product" is tarnished at best, and failing dismally at worst, on all counts. Even assuming that such candidates actually exist.


This is where we are, at the end of a dead end street, with no visible means of getting out and back into the sunlight, and moving forward. Bugger me, it is totally depressing.
 

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Alan Cameron (40)
Cyclopath

This is my vision and Daz by the way it’s been close to a week not five hours. I can send you some links on simple maths using dates and times if you like.

We create and 8 team national domestic competition with room to grow to 16 teams.

We have 5 teams, if we get the Force back, add Hunter / Newcastle / Central coast, add a North Sydney / Northern Beaches team playing out of NSO and a team in Penrith [heaps of PI folk out there]

Play twice so 14 rounds, with the top 2 or 3 going into a Super League competition, the bottom 5 or 6 to play in local competitions.

Sell it to media, overseas, promote to PI nations almost if the Penrith side is a PI side.

To fund this the ARU sell all current sides price is 8 million Four teams at 8 million is 32 million, new teams will need 10 million in capital to enter.

Have the new competition controlled, promoted and run by the teams themselves. The ARU would have nothing to do with it other than take over when the Super Rugby sides are known. International matches still with the ARU obviously.

Puts on helmet to be told how it will fail while we watch the ship slowly sink.
 

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Alan Cameron (40)
Wam

I am sure your business expertise and experience, you would have formed the opinion in business you need some basic or core essentials.

Bear with me, as despite your negative outlook at times, I do respect your business acumen.

First of all you need a product, second you need a good operating system, third a leader who can command respect not demand respect, fourth a clear vision of the future which most stakeholders support.

We only have one of these a code / product up against many quality products.

Our operating system in Super Rugby is very poor, and we have no separation of powers in that the ARU sit on the S.....R board, own the teams, and control all the money.

I am sure if you sat down with a pen and paper within a week you could design a better operating system.

As for a leader who can command respect and all stakeholders sayings its all shoulders to the pump ....heavens WA and ARU are almost in a civil war, Club Land and the ARU are in a civil war.

So we need new systems and a new leadership group
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Cyclopath

This is my vision and by the way it’s been close to a week not five hours. I can send you some links on simple maths using dates and times if you like.

We create and 8 team national domestic competition with room to grow to 16 teams.

We have 5 teams, if we get the Force back, add Hunter / Newcastle / Central coast, add a North Sydney / Northern Beaches team playing out of NSO and a team in Penrith [heaps of PI folk out there]

Play twice so 14 rounds, with the top 2 or 3 going into a Super League competition, the bottom 5 or 6 to play in local competitions.

Sell it to media, overseas, promote to PI nations almost if the Penrith side is a PI side.

To fund this the ARU sell all current sides price is 8 million Four teams at 8 million is 32 million, new teams will need 10 million in capital to enter.

Have the new competition controlled, promoted and run by the teams themselves. The ARU would have nothing to do with it other than take over when the Super Rugby sides are known. International matches still with the ARU obviously.

Puts on helmet to be told how it will fail while we watch the ship slowly sink.

So you suggest a NSW comp with 4 other teams? Yeah, nah. The ARU sell all sides for $8 million each? To whom? Sorry, but this proposal has so many holes in it, it isn't funny. Not sure why you're sending me links on simple maths, as I made no reference to any in my previous post; I just said I couldn't understand what you were talking about. Still can't, sorry.
 
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