Why is Tom Carter unpickable?

[Blue]

Gnostic - Lambie on the wing? Preposterous. Aplon is garbage and has never performed at Trinations level. JP Pietersen is like Drew Mitchell 3 years ago, fast, elusive, but a headcase with poor ball security. Mitchell was in the best form of any winger globally pre-injury.

You were tolerable until this bit "Aplon is garbage"

What utter rubbish. He has been the best of the SA back 3 for some time now.

Will de Jongh make an Aus A side? Yes. Will he make the Wallabies? I reckon he would be a 12 or 13 PERFECTLY suited to the way Australia play. His angles and acceleration are amazing. A guy like Cooper would have a field day putting him into space.

 

[light]

Have you all forgotten he plays for the Waratah's? that alone is reason enough not to select him.

 

[jay-c]

That's a furphy. Fruean, Dagg, Guildford, Rokocoko, Jane, Nonu for example are quick, at least as quick as their Aus counterparts. So too Aplon, de Jongh, Habana, Nokwe, Lambie and others for SA. I really don't see how we are substantially quicker. Carter would be about as quick as slower members of both backlines. There may be reasons to not pick him, but I'm not sure the "Oz are faster and more skillful" argument holds a lot of water.
I won't even start on the silly try celebrations (which I know was not part of your reasoning), but suffice to say, there are equally silly ones perpetrated by many others.

ill give u fruen dagg and guilford sure but beale, cooper, oconner, mitchell, (digby too over short distances) would smoke rokocoko jane smith nonu and sbw.
speed and skill is an area we do have an advantage i feel> precisely where carter gets left behind
the saffas are gunna go with devilliers and fourie in the centers, jp peterson and probably habanna and kirtchner or styne at 15.
peterson has pace, habanna diminishing- but the rest of them would get beaten for pace.
of course the saffa and kiwi centers are amongst the best centers in the world but its not for their speed. there are many things they can and will do better than us as center combinations but our players are more agile on average id suggest> better feet

 

[stusker]

Blue - Aplon has never performed at Trinations level. Pietersen would make my Oz RWC squad either, but is far superior to Aplon.

de Jongh is nippy and has great acceleration, but so does Nokwe. These two could get a spot in the Rebels squad, or the Force, for Sidey or Cummins.

There endeth the lesson.

 

[Gnostic]

You were tolerable until this bit "Aplon is garbage"

What utter rubbish. He has been the best of the SA back 3 for some time now.

Will de Jongh make an Aus A side? Yes. Will he make the Wallabies? I reckon he would be a 12 or 13 PERFECTLY suited to the way Australia play. His angles and acceleration are amazing. A guy like Cooper would have a field day putting him into space.

Hey Blue can you fix your quote, I didn't say Aplon was garbage!!

 

[stusker]

Gnostic - you talk of facts and Pat Lambie as a winger. You remind me of a poster from another bored. Not in a good way.

 

[daz]

Carter is also widely renowned as a bit of a doofus - see his post try celebrations. How any non-GenY finds him anything other than offensive and tedious is beyond me.....and Robbie Deams it would seem.

.

You know, this kind of criteria for why a player is good or bad really gives me the liquid stools.

There are hundreds of current and former test players who celebrate tries in different ways. Some funny, some dumb, and mostly all baffling. Let's stick to what kind of skill he is being critiqued on rather than how he celebrates a try. He can strip naked and hump the goal posts for all I care, if it means he just got my team 5 points....

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

There are, I think, a few questions that I would ask in terms of whether you'd pick Carter as a centre in the Wallaby squad:

1, What attributes do we want a 12 or 13 to have?
2, Of those attributes, which of them does Carter possess?
3, Given that there are only a finite number of places for centres in the squad, how does Carter compare to the blokes competing.

What do we want?

Deans seems to prefer quick, ball playing inside centres and straight running, incisive outside centres who are strong defensively. Carter doesn't really possess the Deans preferred skillset for 12, but maybe does for 13.

What does Carter do well (and not)?

From the stats, it appears that Tom is solid defensively, can truck the ball up into contact and provide a presence at the breakdown (i.e. help secure or steal the ball in the tackle area). He doesn't offer much in the passing, line breaking, creativity (a nebulous term) or offloading departments. I suspect he doesn't have a boot to speak of, but that isn't captured here. His other problem in my opinion is his discipline. He gives away penalties and has been known to get into off the ball niggle with the opposition. In big games in the knockout stages of World Cup's, team discipline is very important and I'm not certain he has it.

How does he compare with his competition?

Adam Ashley-Cooper is the incumbent at present and deservedly so. His form in the 13 jersey was outstanding in the latter part of last year. I don't think Carter would challenge him for a starting position. As far as backup, we can probably make the assumption that Horne is gone as an option. That leaves Ant, Cross, Morts, Inman, Chambers and McCabe as his competition. I would say that Ant and McCabe are ahead of him as outside centres at the moment, but he compares well to the other guys.

I wouldn't be taking him, as I feel that other players offer more.

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic - you talk of facts and Pat Lambie as a winger. You remind me of a poster from another bored. Not in a good way.

Tell me what qualities Lambie doesn't possess to fill wing/15? He is quick if not blindingly fast, has a great step, perhaps the biggest boot in the Super comp which is accurate as well. I always like to have one of the wingers in my sides able to play 15 as well and Lambie has the skills.

As for reminding yopu of something in a negative manner, I bear that cross all the time. I am just misunderstood.

 

[JJJ]

I'd like to know if he makes any kiwis or saffers nervous when he gets the ball. I'm betting he doesn't. That's what it takes at international level.

 

[stusker]

Tell me what qualities Lambie doesn't possess to fill wing/15? He is quick if not blindingly fast, has a great step, perhaps the biggest boot in the Super comp which is accurate as well. I always like to have one of the wingers in my sides able to play 15 as well and Lambie has the skills.

As for reminding yopu of something in a negative manner, I bear that cross all the time. I am just misunderstood.

The fact is Lambie has never played wing in Superugby. He is a 10/12/15. Not to say he cannot play 11/14, its just that you seem interested in facts.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm sure if he can play 15 he can also play 11/14.

 

[JimboJoe1006]

I'd like to know if he makes any kiwis or saffers nervous when he gets the ball. I'm betting he doesn't. That's what it takes at international level.

You also don't want your own supporters getting nervous too though.

 

[cyclopath]

That's a furphy. Fruean, Dagg, Guildford, Rokocoko, Jane, Nonu for example are quick, at least as quick as their Aus counterparts. So too Aplon, de Jongh, Habana, Nokwe, Lambie and others for SA. QUOTE]

Incorrect. Rokes is running on old legs, Nonu has never been quick. The Safas are quick straight line, Habana is diminishing, but would Nowke, Aplon or de Jongh make an Oz A side? No. Quotas aside, they are not SA RWC standard, Habana aside, so your analysis is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? No, my opinion is different to yours, that does not make mine irrelevant. Watching Nonu and Rokocoko recently they looked pretty sharp. Easily as quick as their counterparts in our probable back line, such as Giteau / AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Ioane. Fruean has outpaced several of them, Guildford and Dagg some of the quickest around. So, I would say my analysis is quite relevant.

 

[liquor box]

Maybe his run:tackle bust ratio is not high enough or offload/linebreaks:run ratio is not high enough?

I think he is worth a shot but if you only offload or line break every 15th attempt it may not be up to Dingos expectations. His defence is obviously good enough and his attack is adequate but does he create anything?

I would pick him for a minor test and a tour to europe next year.

 

[cyclopath]

Gnostic - you talk of facts and Pat Lambie as a winger. You remind me of a poster from another bored. Not in a good way.

Stusker, you remind me of other trolls from other boards, and not in a good way.
Have a quick read of the rules, mate.
Argue a point with some sort of argument, other than "your opinion / analysis is rubbish / irrelevant" and "XYZ is a ponce" etc...

 

[DPK]

You also don't want your own supporters getting nervous too though.

Anyone else get nervous because of QC (Quade Cooper)? Those stupid cut out passes always remind me of Morty's intercept try in 03.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I think the reason he has never been selected for even an 'A' team is because while he has improved his consistency over the years, he has never shown to have a great deal of ability or potential.

He doesn't have the skills or speed of a Tim Horan, nor the hard running, line breaking, imposing nature of a Stirling Mortlock or Nathan Grey. Quite simply he is a toiler who does a good job for his province, bringing his consistency up to that level that coaches love, where they know what they will get out of him every week. Though to come in to contention for national honors he would have to develop a whole new skill set which he has yet to in over 50 Super Rugby games OR develop a tackle busting, line bending running ability like that of Mortlock, Grey and Ioane which he is currently short of.

That's my thoughts anyway.

 

[Langthorne]

I'm pretty sure that Bob Dwyer pointed out that defence is 50% of the job, and I would add that it is especially true of a back.

I can certainly imagine a situation where Carter should be considered for the Wallabies (and it is incredible that he hasn't been tried at Aus A level). I wouldn't rate him better than an in form (and uninjured) AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Horne, Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor), Giteau, but as soon as one of those guys is injured and out of the equation I think Carter should be in contention (at least as much as a similar player like A Fainga'a).

I don't think we want a backline full of 'rockstars' and, especially at the end of a tight game when holding a slender lead, it would be great to be able to bring on a pretty rock solid player to grind it out (there are no bonus points in international rugby).

X-factor? Maybe not, but he has all the skills required and excels in a number of areas (areas which other more adventurous players tend to be weaker in). Additionally, just like A Fainga'a to be fair, when it comes to effort and committment he would let nobody down if he played for the Wallabies.

My preference would be for Tom Carter to be given a shot at the Aus A team and the wider training group. That way he can be tested in international rugby and in the wider squad.

 

[cyclopath]

I think it would an interesting exercise to see him running off Cooper / Genia. I think there is a better footballer in there than we necessarily see at NSW. He'll never be a Horan, Mortlock, Dan Herbert but I don't think he'd be a weak link. He'll tackle most things that come near him, he'll get a pilfer or two, and he can definitely crash it over from 5m out pretty well. Not at all flashy, but reasonably effective. Not my first pick at 12 for Aus, but I agree with a go at Aus A level sometime.