Reds v Brumbies - RD10 2013

[Gagger]

Couldn't see the game live, so caught all the hoo-ha before seeing it. My observations in the cold light of day (very different from watching live):

1 - I don't get all the stuff about the "Brumbies not playing". They went through multiple phases of attack a number of times even late in the game. This was hardly a pommy or Irish rugby performance

2 - Jackson the ref was wobbly, and Mowen did a great job on him (Jackson actually apologises to him in the 17th minute) - but he was far from Bryce or Kaplan-esque and the carry on about the penalties is hysteria. He binned two players. That there weren't more was largely down to how the penalties fell between the cards, the tries and the gazillion mistakes the Reds made.

The idea that he would start binning a player or awarding a penalty try for any subsequent penalty is just daft by the way. Listen to yourselves.

 

[barbarian]

Agree totally Gags. Some of the comments on the front page (directed at both the ref and the Brumbies) were idiotic in the extreme.

Haven't read much of this thread, but presume people are taking a more measured approach. I thought the ref was OK, and neither side can claim they were robbed of anything by the man in the middle.
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[Merrow]

Couldn't see the game live, so caught all the hoo-ha before seeing it. My observations in the cold light of day (very different from watching live):

1 - I don't get all the stuff about the "Brumbies not playing". They went through multiple phases of attack a number of times even late in the game. This was hardly a pommy or Irish rugby performance

2 - Jackson the ref was wobbly, and Mowen did a great job on him (Jackson actually apologises to him in the 17th minute) - but he was far from Bryce or Kaplan-esque and the carry on about the penalties is hysteria. He binned two players. That there weren't more was largely down to how the penalties fell between the cards, the tries and the gazillion mistakes the Reds made.

The idea that he would start binning a player or awarding a penalty try for any subsequent penalty is just daft by the way. Listen to yourselves.

And finally, a voice of reason. Well put.

 

[Gagger]

We're talking about the front page piece - read the comments, there are some pretty silly ones there. It's entertaining reading though.
The cross-section on the forum and front page can be quite different at times.

Someone actually wrote "Pox on Glenn Jackson and the Brumbies"

 

[Sully]

i think slim's point was what is the purpose of continuing to give interviews attacking an opposition team - both Link and Horwill said their piece after the match (in my humble opinion, showing poor form - next we'll be chasing the ref after the penalties like the mungos).
All this is only prepetuating the negativity it supposed to condemn.
The Brumbies also had dubious decisions against them last night (e.g. can anyone say they saw Gill grounding the ball?), but that is history.
all wingeing in the world won't change the result, and Link should be experienced enough to understand that.

I saw him

 

[Richo]

Someone actually wrote "Pox on Glenn Jackson and the Brumbies"

Goodfellow, methinks the saucy knave had a cup of sack too much and was betook by the choler. 'Tis not so much a sin.

 

[Rassie]

I think these are the two most important stats from the game....

Penalties:
Reds 7
Brumbies 16

Turnovers:
Reds 20
Brumbies 8

How many of those turn overs are from kicks? You will note Cooper is one of the leaders in giving away turn overs and one of the guys who kicked the most. Then you will note the Reds made huge amount of tackles in their games on avg which will tell you where those are actually going. Straight into the oppositions hands.

 

[USARugger]

As observers of the game Jackson severely hindered the experience for all of us by losing control of the match and making dubious decisions to both sides. This would have been even that much more enjoyable of a watch if a more experienced and confident referee was handling the match. That said both teams got shorted by Jackson although you can argue all night and day about to which degree, but that's a pretty pointless exercise. Regardless, he's clearly not ready for matches of this level and intensity. Maybe he wasn't well out of his depth and was just extremely constipated but during the last two assaults on the Brumbie's try-line his face was contorting in ways reminiscent of a Picasso. He simply looked shell-shocked and somewhat lost and it showed in the officiating.

I'm upset with the quality of the officiating not as a Reds fan, but as a rugby supporter because it brought the quality of the game down. Even then it was an absolute pearler of a match.

Either way all of the denied and held up tries felt like a bit of just desserts after how many times the Chiefs absolutely butchered their own scoring opportunities last weekend.

 

[Scotty]

Agree totally Gags. Some of the comments on the front page (directed at both the ref and the Brumbies) were idiotic in the extreme.

Haven't read much of this thread, but presume people are taking a more measured approach. I thought the ref was OK, and neither side can claim they were robbed of anything by the man in the middle.
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So what your are saying is that Reds fans are somehow more one-eyed than Brumbies fans since they are complaining more and refereeing didn't let the brumbies get away with anymore than what the reds got away with?

Some Reds fans have gone over the top, however I still see a justification for them to feel aggrieved. More so when I watched the replay.

 

[Penguin]

i think slim's point was what is the purpose of continuing to give interviews attacking an opposition team - both Link and Horwill said their piece after the match (in my humble opinion, showing poor form - next we'll be chasing the ref after the penalties like the mungos).
All this is only prepetuating the negativity it supposed to condemn.
The Brumbies also had dubious decisions against them last night (e.g. can anyone say they saw Gill grounding the ball?), but that is history.
all wingeing in the world won't change the result, and Link should be experienced enough to understand that.

How could Gill not have grounded the ball? Slipper to for that matter! Blinkered vision goes both ways mate.
Link was right to criticise the referee, they have to be accountable for their performances to, just like everybody else in society.
But now it's time to move on......

 

[Brumbieman]

Gill did ground it, but he grounded it on Nic White's lower leg, not the grass.

 

[Quick Hands]

I love the passion on this thread. As a neutral observer, I can say to Reds fans that the ref wan't against you, he made some clangers the other way as well. He bascially lost control about the 20 minute mark and was a spectator with a whistle after that.

Also the idea that any ref would keep yellow carding players until the Reds scored is a little ridiculous. I've never seen that happen in a game of rugby yet.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Apart from the 2011 Grand Final, I cannot remember being so exhausted from watching a football game.

As a Reds fan I am quite frustrated as we had so many opportunities, but at the same time I acknowledge the great defensive display from the Brumbies.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say these aren't only the best two teams in Australia, but currently the best in the competition.

Anyway, in terms of Wallaby selections, and performances, here is how I saw it turn out.

1- Alexander > Holmes
2- Moore > Hanson
3- Slipper > Palmer (Slipper is immense week-in-week-out)
4- Simmons > Kimlin
5- Horwill > Carter
6- Mowen > Quirk (even though he was wearing 8)
7- Gill > Smith (just nudges him out)
8- Shatz > Auelua (take notice Deans, Shatz is better then Dennis)
9- Genia > White
10- Cooper > To'omua
11- Ioane > Tomane
12- Lealiafano > Tapuai
13- Fainga'a/Kuridriani (both were poor I thought)
14- Davies > Speight
15- Mogg > Lance (what a freak)

That's just from last night.

Tiger,
agree with all your puicks except Gill V Smith - would have given the points decision to Smith, just for composure and experience.
noticed that Slipper was defending at 10 for Auelua on Brums lineout and he had little impact on those normally big damaging runs.
great to see Davies step up in the last couple of weeks - honestly thought he was done at the Reds

 

[Scotty]

I love the passion on this thread. As a neutral observer, I can say to Reds fans that the ref wan't against you, he made some clangers the other way as well. He bascially lost control about the 20 minute mark and was a spectator with a whistle after that.

Also the idea that any ref would keep yellow carding players until the Reds scored is a little ridiculous. I've never seen that happen in a game of rugby yet.

I don't think that anyone really thinks the ref favoured either team. Decisions went both ways. It just happens that 'loosing control of the rucks' normally favours the defensive team (as it means slow ball).

We see this in international rugby a bit as well, and my opinion is that something needs to change if we want rugby to move to the next level.

 

[Braveheart81]

How many of those turn overs are from kicks? You will note Cooper is one of the leaders in giving away turn overs and one of the guys who kicked the most. Then you will note the Reds made huge amount of tackles in their games on avg which will tell you where those are actually going. Straight into the oppositions hands.

A kick doesn't count as a turnover. A turnover only happens when you lose the ball unintentionally whether it is from a knock on, a forward pass, a missed lineout or losing the ball in a ruck/maul when your side takes it in.

The Reds dropped a lot of ball (plus there were a couple of errant passes) which is why their turnover stat was so high.

 

[barbarian]

So what your are saying is that Reds fans are somehow more one-eyed than Brumbies fans since they are complaining more and refereeing didn't let the brumbies get away with anymore than what the reds got away with?

Some Reds fans have gone over the top, however I still see a justification for them to feel aggrieved. More so when I watched the replay.

Yes, Reds fans are (on the whole) more one-eyed than Brumbies fans. And the penalty count (and YC count) indicates the Brumbies didn't get away with much at all. Obviously they got away with slowing down the ball a bit, but ultimately the ref can only do so much- the Reds needed to be smarter in both the way they played, and the options they took after receiving penalties.
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[Scotty]

Of course they could have been smarter, but in the wider context (ignoring this game for a second), don't you see value in laws and law applications that stops illegal slowing down of rucks? For the growth of rugby, don't we want to see positive play and teams going for tries? Or are you happy with a team sport that is primarily reliant on its kicker to determine the outcome?

 

[Lindommer]

Yes, Reds fans are (on the whole) more one-eyed than Brumbies fans.

You're probably right about our Reds brothers and sisters there, barbarian (and what's wrong with being a passionate one-eyed supporter of one's team?), but the Brumbies faithful are quickly gaining a reputation for seeing things only through a horse's mouth. I've been to Canberra these last two years to watch them clean up my beloved Tahs, some Brumbies fans are positively feral. And I'm not the only one who's noticed this development.

 

[barbarian]

Of course they could have been smarter, but in the wider context (ignoring this game for a second), don't you see value in laws and law applications that stops illegal slowing down of rucks? For the growth of rugby, don't we want to see positive play and teams going for tries? Or are you happy with a team sport that is primarily reliant on its kicker to determine the outcome?

Yes and no. Tries aren't the be all and end all. This business Link was going on about how the Reds deserved to win because they were the only team playing rugby (paraphrasing) is ludicrous.

The great thing about our game is there are such a variety of tactics an opposition can use, and you need to have a variety of game plans and be able to think on your feet. The Brumbies were trying to slow the Reds down, and quite a lot of it they did legally. That is just part of the game.

When they did it illegally, the ref was on it more often than not IMO.
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[Braveheart81]

Of course they could have been smarter, but in the wider context (ignoring this game for a second), don't you see value in laws and law applications that stops illegal slowing down of rucks? For the growth of rugby, don't we want to see positive play and teams going for tries? Or are you happy with a team sport that is primarily reliant on its kicker to determine the outcome?

It's a tough judgement to make though. Part of slowing down the ball is legitimately trying to steal it before the referee calls you out to let go of it for being off your feet or the ruck formed.

Watering down the ability to pilfer the ball would take away a lot of the contest at the breakdown. If you were too harsh on players getting that wrong it would have a significant impact on removing that contest.

The Reds got so many penalties against the Brumbies in the red zone, but one thing that taking a quick tap denies is time for the referee to give a formal warning to the opposition captain. There was one moment in the game where Jackson told Horwill that he needed to wait if he wanted him to issue a warning and on that occassion the Reds did wait before kicking for touch to take another lineout.

As long as you keep taking quick taps, every successive quick tap is effectively going to be a 'free' penalty for the defensive team in that it is not going to result in you being issued a warning until there is another penalty and play actually stops.

Also, once a player has been yellow carded, the penalty count is effectively going to reset before another warning is issued and another card is given. No referee in world rugby is going to give back to back cards for repeated infringements. There will be a couple of penalties, then a warning and then potentially another card.

The second part of this post is more a general comment in terms of many posts in this thread rather than a reply to your post above.