2013 IRB Junior World Championship - France

[Inside Shoulder]

To me this really comes down to coaching and not ability. That and the fact that has previously mentioned they are under-prepared in match conditions.

Haven't seen it - may watch it tonight.
Given our geographic isolation we can't have an u20's 6 nations - but NZ always do well in this tournament and SA have certainly won it, though I dont keep much of an eye on them.
Do either of them or Argentina have any appetite for an U20's version of TRC? I know it woiuld be expensive but it just another level at which we (Aus) are not finding and developing our best.
Dealing with the here and now - when you blame coaching it really must come back to the coaching they're getting week in week out: you cant teach them to lower the body height 2 weeks prior to the tournament. or do you think otherwise?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

More problems with our pathway are becoming evident.

Issues with player preparation are not solely the realm of the players.

The whole Coaching pathway needs to be examined to establish if our coaches are up to speed at all levels not just those chosen as the Jnr RWC coaching team.

The kids execute skills learned much earlier in the Under 12's onwards. By the time they get to School 1st XV and Schoolboy reps, and Colts, it's often too late to unlearn bad habits that have gone unchecked by inexperienced coaches.

What is our priority? Winning Jnr RWC, or Sevens preparation for Rio 2016, or developing Super Rugby depth.

I think I read somewhere that there are more registered senior male players in Aust than in NZ (or at least on a par). It would appear that despite the Rugby census figures showing awesome growth in our game in terms of participation numbers, the truth is that these figures may not be accurate. Shock horror.

While our elite players seem to be able to foot to with the best, once the surface is scratched, the depth is not there. We saw that last year with Team rehab Wobs being probably a more capable team than the actual Wobs at some stages.

We also see that when you take the Wobs out of the Soup Franchises, then there is very little genuine quality and experience left to face the B&I Lions. Bring on the third tier argument. We seem to be placing a lot of emphasis in the development of the "chosen few" - JGS, NGS, Academies, to the detriment of the masses. I might add that the various NGS and Acadamies seem to do a reasonable job with the product that they produce, just that we need more of them.

B&I Lions is a 1 in 12 year tour. Rugby 7's World cup will disappear in favour of the Olympics IIRC which will be every four years. Super Rugby is here to stay. Jnr RWC is an annual event. Bottom line is that there will always be competing interests for our best up and coming elite players, and we just need to produce more of them.

Third Tier (in whatever form it eventually takes) will help, but there needs to be more effort placed in the overall development of all rugby players and coaches.

What lessons did we learn from the 2012 Jnr RWC?
Did we make any changes this time around? (apart from dropping Nuci).

Edit: Having Servo's boy at the Tournament may expedite "issues" to the forefront of the ARU executive. There may be some hope.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Edit: Having Servo's boy at the Tournament may expedite "issues" to the forefront of the ARU executive. There may be some hope.

Part of me says "I hope so" and another part of me says "this just shows how narrow the pyramid is" - could any but an obscure dictatorship in one of the other 2 inhabited continents in the southern hemisphere expect the son of the CEO of their national union to be selected in their U20's team?
Its just a bit too cosy - not to suggest (for present purposes) that either is undeserving just to observe how small the pool is.
I think the habits learned at 12 can be overcome and with good coaching they can be overcome relatively quickly but I wonder how good the coaching is at any point.
As I observed in another, not entirely unrelated context, if you want to turn the tide of what is happening in the senior levels of the game you need to start at the bottom. Your best coaches need to be down at the bottom unlearning the wrong stuff and constantly reinforcing the right stuff.
i am flying blind but I'll bet pounds to peanuts that if there's a bod height issue as tranquility suggests it will have to do with the fact that these kids have been physically dominant through the age groups and challenged on an infrequent basis.
Conveniently for my theories this directs attention to the fractured nature of the various club and school competitions which means that no one gets good competition on a week in week out basis.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It's all linked isn't it, and the same old themes keep cropping up when you try to establish what the root cause of the problem is, and what needs to be done.

 

[tranquility]

Haven't seen it - may watch it tonight.
Given our geographic isolation we can't have an u20's 6 nations - but NZ always do well in this tournament and SA have certainly won it, though I dont keep much of an eye on them.
Do either of them or Argentina have any appetite for an U20's version of TRC? I know it woiuld be expensive but it just another level at which we (Aus) are not finding and developing our best.
Dealing with the here and now - when you blame coaching it really must come back to the coaching they're getting week in week out: you cant teach them to lower the body height 2 weeks prior to the tournament. or do you think otherwise?

I see what your saying, and in regards to body height that has to be accountable on the players at this level.

The coaching I refer to, is with regards to the breakdown commitment and static ball runners. It is so clear that it is a coaching prerogative for our forwards to attack in the way they do, because the Wallabies do it as well.

We attempt to create this structured tight game, generally only orchestrated with any success by Genia picking off ball-runners. The reality is these tough meters need to be earned not formulated.

The Irish big men ran from deep and their 9 hit them at pace on the gain line generating quick ball. We had static pods waiting 5 meters from the rucks, while our halfback controlled the ball and marshaled the pods. How is approach supposed to work ?

Its over coaching, as in theory it seems like structured and intelligent play. In reality it is counter intuitive to grabbing the ball and making tough meters. You can only allow so much structure before you start to negatively affect the instincts of the players.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Its over coaching

Oh baby have you hit the nail on the head

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The Irish big men ran from deep and their 9 hit them at pace on the gain line generating quick ball. We had static pods waiting 5 meters from the rucks, while our halfback controlled the ball and marshaled the pods. How is approach supposed to work ?
.

Ah, an old favourite of mine: static pods of forwards who create no actual go forward. I agree Tranq, it seems ridiculous. Big bodies in motion, hitting and bending the line at pace doesn't seem to outlandish a concept does it?

We really do over complicate this grand old game of ours at times.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Strip away all the crap and it boils down to this: Run forwards, pass backwards, don't run out.

Fairly simple really.

 

[qwerty51]

The problem is 100% the coaching and preparation, we have the talent despite the set backs we have here in Australia.

 

[Nusadan]

Twitter feed showing links to match highlights from yesterday:

https://twitter.com/irbjuniors

 

[Lee Grant]

I did a blog on the home page this morning when I was sleep-deprived.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/review-under-20-jwc-australia-v-ireland/

.

 

[Passive Observer]

It is interesting to read the comments here on the development or lack thereof Australian Rugby players post school, many of which I agree with. For me, Australian Rugby is far too reliant on the high school system which is reflected somewhat in the percentage of players selected in this U20 comp. (I agree with earlier writers that these players should prove their worth in the Colts / Grades program prior to selection in such a high standard competition given the elevation of skills & toughness they are faced with. It may also have the added benefit of dispelling players having a distorted opinion of their own ability.)

Further, this reflection on the number of players that have come through the Aust. National Academy & the ARU Academy is nothing more than a misguided and self-fulfilling prophecy - it's alomost like the continued selection of these boys justifys their original selection as a 16yr old?! Time develops players both physically and mentally but this concept seems to be lost on "prior selection status" and a reputation gained in high school at the expense of boys who are late developers or enter the sport post school. Rugby in Australia is sadly lacking unbiased identification and selection of talent post school and providing a platform of competition to illustrate the same.

I do not blame the coaching staff, except to say that they no doubt had a big say in who was selected. They had a limited hand over period from the previous coaching staff and obviously lacked the support of the ARU to address the problems mentioned above as well as trial games for the squad.

I only hope for the sake of future development of Australian Rugby that the limitations of player development and selection highlighted in ths forum is addressed by the ARU.

 

[Dave Beat]

It is interesting to read the comments here on the development or lack thereof Australian Rugby players post school, many of which I agree with. For me, Australian Rugby is far too reliant on the high school system which is reflected somewhat in the percentage of players selected in this U20 comp. (I agree with earlier writers that these players should prove their worth in the Colts / Grades program prior to selection in such a high standard competition given the elevation of skills & toughness they are faced with. It may also have the added benefit of dispelling players having a distorted opinion of their own ability.)

Further, this reflection on the number of players that have come through the Aust. National Academy & the ARU Academy is nothing more than a misguided and self-fulfilling prophecy - it's alomost like the continued selection of these boys justifys their original selection as a 16yr old?! Time develops players both physically and mentally but this concept seems to be lost on "prior selection status" and a reputation gained in high school at the expense of boys who are late developers or enter the sport post school. Rugby in Australia is sadly lacking unbiased identification and selection of talent post school and providing a platform of competition to illustrate the same.

I do not blame the coaching staff, except to say that they no doubt had a big say in who was selected. They had a limited hand over period from the previous coaching staff and obviously lacked the support of the ARU to address the problems mentioned above as well as trial games for the squad.

I only hope for the sake of future development of Australian Rugby that the limitations of player development and selection highlighted in ths forum is addressed by the ARU.

Well put

 

[Dan54]

I have wondered in here a couple of times if some of these young fellas are being overcoached. I know rugby academies are considered the bee's knees, but I do like that sometimes young players need to go out and get bashed about by shrewd old buggers. And no I don't mean smacked around, just go and find out that sometimes the things you train to do, the opposition are not going to let you do, so change something so you can do it!! There is sometimes you just need to put your head down, arse up and try to go through the tough patches in game, and sometimes playing with and against a few senior players teaches you this. Strutures are impoatant in rugby but not everything!!

 

[qwerty51]

Colts players should be banned from playing. Only get picked if you're playing grade.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I have wondered in here a couple of times if some of these young fellas are being overcoached. I know rugby academies are considered the bee's knees, but I do like that sometimes young players need to go out and get bashed about by shrewd old buggers. And no I don't mean smacked around, just go and find out that sometimes the things you train to do, the opposition are not going to let you do, so change something so you can do it!! There is sometimes you just need to put your head down, arse up and try to go through the tough patches in game, and sometimes playing with and against a few senior players teaches you this. Strutures are impoatant in rugby but not everything!!

It used to be how things worked with rugby in Australia and cricket too. When you were a cocky young fella, you got thrown into playing against grown men in the grade system. Nothing sharpens up your game than playing against those blokes, I know I certainly learned a lot from the experience.

We've somehow lost this in a couple of our sports and there is too much emphasis on elite squads, rather than hard yards through the club system. This is why club footy is so important.

 

[exISA]

SA 97 USA 0

So much for Rugby is on the up in the US. Its almost a century behind

Don't use this result as a yard stick for rugby being on the up in the USA because it is - you only need to look at the results and style of play from their national team over the last few world cups to see it is on the up - still a tier two nation but it is so much better than what it was 15 - 20 years ago. I might be a little biased given I live here now and actually know the Coach of the U20's (who is a phenominal coach) .YOu have to remember that very few of the senior side and practically all of the junior side are professionals, they are amatures with day jobs coming up against professional rugby players.

The biggest problem I am finding with USA rugby as a whole (and the problem is magnified at the colts/U20 level) is the pathway to the USA national sides isn't exactly ideal (besides the fact I think the game isn't managed as well as it could be from the top) . There is some phenominal players/athletes here but the talent is so wide spread that co-hesion and developement is stagnated because 1) players don't get to play together enough to form experience and combinations together for long periods of time 2) the obvious one being exposure to high level games consistently .

The pathway to the national sides is literally club -----> national team based on selections in club games , add 600 division 1 sides to pick from and the net has to be cast far and wide. The now defunct Super League is now called the Elite Cup , which is the US version of an elite national competition - which isn't really the standard it could be (its a good compeittion but is still the best 8 clubs in teh country fighting it out) .

There is talk of having a 5 on 5 team competition from USA and Canada which would have the elite players selected for each region but again - these guys have day jobs and there is little to no money being paid. I coached a team this year with a former world cup player who told me they got paid $100 a day to play at the world cup and had to beg for time off work. If the funding was there for these highly talented players to concentrate on rugby and rugby alone then the sleeping giant that is the USA could eventually reach its potential.

I felt for the guys yesterday in the U20 team knowing the preparation they have had - these guys have stepped up from division 2 after winning it last year facing the huge challenge they did yesterday - unfortunately it doesnt get any easier having to play England and France in the upcoming matches.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I've watched the first half only of Ireland v Aus.
Great to see the idea of the miracle ball is alive and well in the next generation of superstars.
It might seem minor but it tells me a lot about what these blokes think they are on the field to do: the 3 backrowers are in molded soles. Ever see Read or McCaw in molded soles? No. Why? because their first job is a grunt job. If 6 studs on the ball of your foot is good enough for possibly the best 7 ever its good enough for these no names. If it takes 0.2 off your 100m time we'll worry about that in the ensuing ruck 2 m from the opposition line.
As I say minor in fact but telling in relation to what they think they are there to do.
Back line passing has been dead average: several balls having no apparent intended receiver going to ground meters from the nearest player only lucky bounces allowing us to maintain possession.
We seem to offer very little resistance in and around the ruck: their smaller men making easy yards.
Terrible defence from 13: first try solely down to his decision to go high and copping a palm in the middle of his chest. Stop the man then worry about the ball. Tackling technique looked like mungoball but I don't know the bloke.
Didn't think the half was as bad as painted: did not see much clean set piece or phase ball all seemed to be turnover - wonder what the possession stats were?
Oz 15 has great acceleration.
Are these guys fit or were they jet lagged?


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[an observer]

Would have liked to read the posts in this thread if we had have scored at the end when number 4 was carded. Why are we so critical, if you are going to criticise at least be constructive. It is a no brainer that Australia lacks preparation time and match fitness at this level. The players all are playing club rugby but with the rep duties they have, game time is minimal. Ireland have just come off six nations, drilled, refined, sorted, composed, a team. Suggestion as posted by one member earlier... More high level games against NZ and maybe even Fiji. These are vital to the development of our junior wallabies as a team. Heads up lads, close but no cigar. Bring it to the NZ game. Good luck. Ps. Stop kicking the ball and run it, your backs are very very capable!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Would have liked to read the posts in this thread if we had have scored at the end when number 4 was carded. Why are we so critical, if you are going to criticise at least be constructive. It is a no brainer that Australia lacks preparation time and match fitness at this level. The players all are playing club rugby but with the rep duties they have, game time is minimal. Ireland have just come off six nations, drilled, refined, sorted, composed, a team. Suggestion as posted by one member earlier. More high level games against NZ and maybe even Fiji. These are vital to the development of our junior wallabies as a team. Heads up lads, close but no cigar. Bring it to the NZ game. Good luck. Ps. Stop kicking the ball and run it, your backs are very very capable!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constructive+criticism


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