2013 IRB Junior World Championship - France

[Lee Grant]

I asked coach Adrian Thompson before the U/20s left for France about the selection of players outside of the National Academy and he said they kept a close eye on such players and invited many in the original 50 to the first camp.

Could folks who think that more players outside of the NA system should have been picked please nominate a few of them?

I'm not being mischievous: I just want to know how big the problem is.
.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Well here's one -Rhys Dombkins. Selected for Oz A Schools in2010, OZ Schools in 2011 as a lock (was hurt in 2011 and missed both tests). Played Manly 1st Colts last year and is co-captain this year as a 6 (has played 7 and 8 as well). Been given some time in 2nd grade but due to the strength of the Manly club he has been kept back in colts by the club. Attended 2 of the camps (1st and last) was told how well he was going and then given feedback that he was not selected because at 190cm and 97 kegs he was too small.

There is also Kovacic from Warringah who didn't even get invited, Orr from Southern Districts (not invited) and if size matters with aggression then Harris from Randwick should have been looked at

And don't be fooled when they say players from outside the National Academy were chosen. Those players from outside the Academy that were chosen are members of franchises academies or training groups. The last 2 Oz 20's teams have been dominated by NA players and the results speak for themselves

 

[Passive Observer]

Lee, I appreciate your request for names is not mischievous but at that same time do not have any intention to turn the spotlight onto selections. Suffice to say though, that I think there are players out there that are worthy of development and not currently in any Academy Squad and I only watch rugby in Brisbane.

My concern is that there is not a structure in Australian Rugby for lads to test themselves against their peers at a higher level than club rugby once they leave the school system. Inviting players into a training camp is certainly not the answer although I guess it suggests they are being looked at & might offer some encouragement.

To think that boys chosen into these academies, many while still in school, remain the best U20 prospect in the country is naïve to say the least.

My earlier comments were in no way meant to be critical of the boys chosen or the coaching staff, merely to highlight the deficiencies in the Australian U20 "program".

Seriously, what other Australian sport would send a national team off to a world competition without first having some competitive selection process & secondly allowing the team to gel through lead up games, typically involving teams below & above your anticipated level.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Well here's one -Rhys Dombkins. Selected for Oz A Schools in2010, OZ Schools in 2011 as a lock (was hurt in 2011 and missed both tests). Played Manly 1st Colts last year and is co-captain this year as a 6 (has played 7 and 8 as well). Been given some time in 2nd grade but due to the strength of the Manly club he has been kept back in colts by the club. Attended 2 of the camps (1st and last) was told how well he was going and then given feedback that he was not selected because at 190cm and 97 kegs he was too small.

There is also Kovacic from Warringah who didn't even get invited, Orr from Southern Districts (not invited) and if size matters with aggression then Harris from Randwick should have been looked at

And don't be fooled when they say players from outside the National Academy were chosen. Those players from outside the Academy that were chosen are members of franchises academies or training groups. The last 2 Oz 20's teams have been dominated by NA players and the results speak for themselves

Size thing is interesting.
To my eye (which is imperfect, i accept) our scrum issue resulted from our loosehead being too big!
In relation to your man Dombkins: the problem at 7 is that Dempsey looks to me to be playing well - as at half time - and the 8 is the captain; i shall reserve judgment on the 6 until I have a look at the 2nd half with your observations in mind (not that I know Dombkins).

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My concern is that there is not a structure in Australian Rugby for lads to test themselves against their peers at a higher level than club rugby once they leave the school system. Inviting players into a training camp is certainly not the answer although I guess it suggests they are being looked at & might offer some encouragement.

In my day as a player and coach they used to have a Sydney u21's and a NSW U21's who played the teams you would expect rep teams with those names to play.

 

[I like to watch]

Well here's one -Rhys Dombkins. Selected for Oz A Schools in2010, OZ Schools in 2011 as a lock (was hurt in 2011 and missed both tests). Played Manly 1st Colts last year and is co-captain this year as a 6 (has played 7 and 8 as well). Been given some time in 2nd grade but due to the strength of the Manly club he has been kept back in colts by the club. Attended 2 of the camps (1st and last) was told how well he was going and then given feedback that he was not selected because at 190cm and 97 kegs he was too small.

There is also Kovacic from Warringah who didn't even get invited, Orr from Southern Districts (not invited) and if size matters with aggression then Harris from Randwick should have been looked at

And don't be fooled when they say players from outside the National Academy were chosen. Those players from outside the Academy that were chosen are members of franchises academies or training groups. The last 2 Oz 20's teams have been dominated by NA players and the results speak for themselves

Didn't a couple of Manly team mates get selected from outside of the National Academy?

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Hodge and Lalakai are academy players. Northam is as well. Hoskins is a Force Academy player. Phillips is Academy and Tame is part of the Rebels set up

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Oh and by the way Hodge was a call up yet has been outstanding all year as a No. 10. On this tour he is the back-up fullback. Go figure

 

[I like to watch]

Wow, how big is the academy?
And Domkins is not in it?
How? His schoolboy CV is equal to those mentioned.

 

[Craig Riddington]

Apologies if someone has already posted a link and I missed it, but you can get two minutes highlights of the matches here http://www.irb.com/jwc/video/index.html

 

[Orange Peeler]

It could have been a reference to Merriman - who I gather pulled out because of injury opening the way for his successor as Australian School's 9

After further investigation into the No.9 selection,

1. Jock Merriman - Ruled out through injury after originally being named in the Aust U/20's squad.

2. Next likely possible candidate would be Jake Gordon the only U/20 age player (that I am aware of) starting at Halfback in 1st Grade Shute Shield, and yes he still is Colts eligiable.

3. Angus Pulver currently playing Colts 2 is selected to take the spot vacated by Jock Merrimans.

How are these selctions allowed to take place. I could pick a team of left overs just in Sydney that would beat the Australian U/20's. I would even go as far to say that I would make the semi finals.

The buck stops with the Coach.

 

[Sidbarret]

Don't use this result as a yard stick for rugby being on the up in the USA because it is - you only need to look at the results and style of play from their national team over the last few world cups to see it is on the up - still a tier two nation but it is so much better than what it was 15 - 20 years ago. I might be a little biased given I live here now and actually know the Coach of the U20's (who is a phenominal coach) .YOu have to remember that very few of the senior side and practically all of the junior side are professionals, they are amatures with day jobs coming up against professional rugby players.

.........

Watching the highlights I felt a little sorry for the US team. They were completely over-matched athletically, but also you could see that they have never come up against players like that before. As you mentioned, the step up between US club rugby and international is huge, and it showed.

I wonder how hard it would be to get the US players to do working holidays in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Brittian so they can get exposure to a higher level of club rugby.

 

[RugbyNut101]

Harry Boileau is also eligible. He plays first grade for Randwick.

 

[tranquility]

When is Sautia back fit and healthy? The thought of him and Jonah in the same backline would have to breed some insecurity in opposition back-lines.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Ireland well drilled and better disciplined.
Score line probably flattered us as Northam's try was opportunistic.
Seemed to be quite a few missed tackles in the midfield.
did not think our 9 was too bad.
In addition to learning the lure of the miracle ball I see our U20s are big fans of low trajectory punts into their opponents and giving them every opportunity to make more conventional charge downs.
Reffing pretty well unfathomable: in the first half the Irish THP was the first to pop but he got the penalty; right at the death we popped up and they got the penalty. I really think he had NFI.

 

[Orange Peeler]

Harry Boileau is also eligible. He plays first grade for Randwick.

Yes you are correct. Was Harry even considered over a Colts 2 player.

 

[SuperGrover]

We saw two of them in Australia's first game, but here are some names to keep an eye out for during the rest of the tournament...

http://raysrugby.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/ten-players-to-watch-at-the-jwc/

 

[Pfitzy]

Goodness that was fucking awful to watch.

Drop the loosehead and the hooker. And the 12 - he was awful. Whoever laid the defensive plan should get booted as well as any coach involved in ruck drills.

Did we have a 10, 13 or 14 out there? I forget.

Irish back row was superb. Other than that they played solid rugby and should have won by more.

Good points: 3, 6, 8, 11, and the 9 - he was sharp. The locks were OK.

 

[Rassie]

Don't use this result as a yard stick for rugby being on the up in the USA because it is - you only need to look at the results and style of play from their national team over the last few world cups to see it is on the up - still a tier two nation but it is so much better than what it was 15 - 20 years ago. I might be a little biased given I live here now and actually know the Coach of the U20's (who is a phenominal coach) .YOu have to remember that very few of the senior side and practically all of the junior side are professionals, they are amatures with day jobs coming up against professional rugby players.

The biggest problem I am finding with USA rugby as a whole (and the problem is magnified at the colts/U20 level) is the pathway to the USA national sides isn't exactly ideal (besides the fact I think the game isn't managed as well as it could be from the top) . There is some phenominal players/athletes here but the talent is so wide spread that co-hesion and developement is stagnated because 1) players don't get to play together enough to form experience and combinations together for long periods of time 2) the obvious one being exposure to high level games consistently .

The pathway to the national sides is literally club -----> national team based on selections in club games , add 600 division 1 sides to pick from and the net has to be cast far and wide. The now defunct Super League is now called the Elite Cup , which is the US version of an elite national competition - which isn't really the standard it could be (its a good compeittion but is still the best 8 clubs in teh country fighting it out) .

There is talk of having a 5 on 5 team competition from USA and Canada which would have the elite players selected for each region but again - these guys have day jobs and there is little to no money being paid. I coached a team this year with a former world cup player who told me they got paid $100 a day to play at the world cup and had to beg for time off work. If the funding was there for these highly talented players to concentrate on rugby and rugby alone then the sleeping giant that is the USA could eventually reach its potential.

I felt for the guys yesterday in the U20 team knowing the preparation they have had - these guys have stepped up from division 2 after winning it last year facing the huge challenge they did yesterday - unfortunately it doesnt get any easier having to play England and France in the upcoming matches.

I don't know but the national team seems to be doing much worse than 15 to 20 years ago. Well according to this and if you look at the results
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_national_rugby_union_team

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yes you are correct. Was Harry even considered over a Colts 2 player.

All this speculation as to whether blokes were considered over "a colts 2 player" is possibly a little unfair to Pulver.
As has been pointed out the points system applicable in "Shute Shield" distorts the selection processes for a club like Sydney Uni, where Pulver plays.
The points situation at Uni may mean that a strategic decision is taken to play Pulver in Colts 2's rather 1's and to play Colts rather than grade.
I would argue that this corrupts the intended levelling of the playing field - the intention presumably being that players with Oz schools points, who are up to it should go to other clubs to play in higher grades.
But whether that is true or not the point is that you cant take a line through the level at which he's playing and assume that is some universally accurate reflection of ability or form. You'd need to judge it on actually comparing the play of these players - which one hopes the coaches and selectors did - rather than juts slotting in last year's Schools players.