All Blacks EOYT

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Lee, I will put this out there: Will Greenwood is the best English back I have ever seen play and by some distance (a big call I know). He would have made the starting XV of *any* other top tier nation in his era. I rated him that highly. The most unsung player of that whole golden era for England I reckon.

I also like his insightful comments about the game, as it simply reinforces was a great rugby brain he possesses.

I get that UK paddocks aren't necessarily conducive to playing open football and that the traditional English game is based on forward power. But we aren't the ones accusing the other hemisphere of not playing real footy. I guess the results over the years speak for themselves. In the main, the team doing more with the pill tends to win.

 

[Thomond78]

Lee, I will put this out there: Will Greenwood is the best English back I have ever seen play and by some distance (a big call I know). He would have made the starting XV of *any* other top tier nation in his era. I rated him that highly. The most unsung player of that whole golden era for England I reckon.

I also like his insightful comments about the game, as it simply reinforces was a great rugby brain he possesses.

I get that UK paddocks aren't necessarily conducive to playing open football and that the traditional English game is based on forward power.

But we aren't the ones accusing the other hemisphere of not playing real footy.

I guess the results over the years speak for themselves. In the main, the team doing more with the pill tends to win.

Wow.

Ever read the SMH? Spiro? Hell, just about any Aussie journo?

 

[Lee Grant]

TBH,

Agree on Greenwood - very underrated here. He was a bit like a union midfield version of the great league player Wally Lewis - he always had time and opponents watched him. If there were 3 possible options he would invariably make the right one and in the next episode he would do the same etc etc. Not every episode had much effect but because he made the right decisions he invariably had an influence when an event came that mattered.


Agree on his commentary too. Top drawer.


The Pom version of proper footie to them is just as valid as ours is to us and some from both sides are honestly puzzled by the preference of the other.


I don't think that the rugby people in power have such confusion - from coaches up: they know what's cooking.


The folks from the NH squealed when the ELVs were introduced and not all because they were worried about the fabric of the game being corrupted. Many were worried when they heard about the effect of the FK sanctions in Oz domestic rugby in 2007 - that the game was being sped up too much and they didn't have players in the squad to cope. Some others were honestly worried that the fast game would lessen their reasonable crowds because the game wouldn't be the same.


Nobody was more relieved than them when they saw the 2008 Super14 and the botching of the FK sanctions because the cards weren't used. They got away with not having to use them and I for one didn't blame them too much after I thought about it from their view.


Then came the recent crackdown to observe the laws as they were written, something I thought would not work because they couldn't even get refs to put the ball into the scrum straight; so how could they get the refs to release the tackled player? Bugger me - but it worked and is still working. Decades of refereeing malpractice were swept aside.


The thing was though - the crackdown had the same effect as they feared the FK ELV sanctions would have. Players and teams that were good at slowing the ball down, (a valid skill in the refereeing regime before the crackdown), had to learn to perform in a new paradigm of quicker and cleaner ball.


This is the stage we are at now. Good attackers are doing well. Defence mechanisms have not kept pace and players are not realigning quickly enough to deal with the increased frequency of incursions from quicker and safer ball, plus the switching from side to side. Better attack played its part in increasing the number of tries in the 3N this year but so did lesser defence.


This will change; defence in the law crackdown paradigm will improve. Meantime the folks up north will make the noises that Ford is making and some will be paranoid about Hong Kong.
.

 

[macg101]

Is Mike Ford for real? All I can say is that if that's his attitude, I hope the AB's tear his defensive system to shreds on the weekend. Not test footy my arse.

seemed a bit out of character for a guy who normally keeps his head down

 

[Joe Mac]

After those comments from Ford I am going to be extra supportive of the AB's this weekend. Not that i need any more excuses to enjoy watching England be annihilated.

 

[dobduff11]

Brown Hornet: "For real?"
No just kidding mate, he is solid but unspectacular, although he had a great game against France last six nations

Lee:
Ben Jacobs is a good player and yes he did start alot last season alongside both Waldouck and Kefu. This year however the coaches seem to think Flutey and Waldouck are the preferred pair and therefore Jacobs is third choice, he still gets alot of game time because of Fluteys rotation policy thing and the fact theat they are trying him out at 15.

The Centre Breakdown is what I believe Jonnos actual rating of the players is and who he is most likely to play. People have picked TIndall before at 12 and I wouldn't be surprised if Jonno did that. Allen has just been added to the squad and is a decent player, twelvetrees is talented but I have seen him play some absolute shockers for the Tigers A team (development team). He is very inconsistent.

Barkley is fit and is having a good season to date but he is what Mj wants from a 12, also waldouck just got injured along with Barritt I believe and is an ok 13 could potentially play there if a few players got injured.

Delon is playing really well at the moment and played 13 for irish a couple of seasons back when Elvis was injured, could see him there in the future but not now.
Lowe is the quins 13 he is rapid and has had a good couple of seasons,

Greenwood was quality and I wish he stayed on for another few years but he went just after his peak and thats fair enough. Don't know what the hell Mike ford is doing he'll only get them angrier!

 

[Thomond78]

How the hell do they keep selecting Mike Tindall?
Answer: because he is the most devastating outside centre in Europe

Lee Ben jacobs isn't a starter for wasps most of time, he wouldn't get near the team

Centre Breakdown:
12's - Flutey, Hape, Barritt, Allen, Tindall, Waldouck, Barkley
13's - Tindall, Hape, Armitage, Tait, Waldouck, Allen, Hipkiss, Lowe

Lets see how this match goes, It will either be a tight match with England to win it
or tight score until 65 then carter and nonu break our hearts by setting up three late tries

Christ's teeth - are you, in all seriousness, claiming Mike Trundle is a better 13 than BOD? I mean, seriously?

 

[Thomond78]

TBH,

Agree on Greenwood - very underrated here. He was a bit like a union midfield version of the great league player Wally Lewis - he always had time and opponents watched him. If there were 3 possible options he would invariably make the right one and in the next episode he would do the same etc etc. Not every episode had much effect but because he made the right decisions he invariably had an influence when an event came that mattered.


Agree on his commentary too. Top drawer.


The Pom version of proper footie to them is just as valid as ours is to us and some from both sides are honestly puzzled by the preference of the other.


I don't think that the rugby people in power have such confusion - from coaches up: they know what's cooking.


The folks from the NH squealed when the ELVs were introduced and not all because they were worried about the fabric of the game being corrupted. Many were worried when they heard about the effect of the FK sanctions in Oz domestic rugby in 2007 - that the game was being sped up too much and they didn't have players in the squad to cope. Some others were honestly worried that the fast game would lessen their reasonable crowds because the game wouldn't be the same.


Nobody was more relieved than them when they saw the 2008 Super14 and the botching of the FK sanctions because the cards weren't used. They got away with not having to use them and I for one didn't blame them too much after I thought about it from their view.


Then came the recent crackdown to observe the laws as they were written, something I thought would not work because they couldn't even get refs to put the ball into the scrum straight; so how could they get the refs to release the tackled player? Bugger me - but it worked and is still working. Decades of refereeing malpractice were swept aside.


The thing was though - the crackdown had the same effect as they feared the FK ELV sanctions would have. Players and teams that were good at slowing the ball down, (a valid skill in the refereeing regime before the crackdown), had to learn to perform in a new paradigm of quicker and cleaner ball.


This is the stage we are at now. Good attackers are doing well. Defence mechanisms have not kept pace and players are not realigning quickly enough to deal with the increased frequency of incursions from quicker and safer ball, plus the switching from side to side. Better attack played its part in increasing the number of tries in the 3N this year but so did lesser defence.


This will change; defence in the law crackdown paradigm will improve. Meantime the folks up north will make the noises that Ford is making and some will be paranoid about Hong Kong.
.

And the only person whining is from the SH - Venter.

Incidentally, I'm becoming convinced the key to the breakdown now isn't going for jackalling, it's slowing it just enough - you won't get the rip - and smashing every bastard ruck. Every time. Never, ever, ever, ever let anyone have a moment's rest at any breakdown. Don't over-commit - three, maybe, tops, unless you can clean sweep it with four - but attack it, and attack the tackle - one high, one low.

Because we've been doing that, fine-tuning it since Leinster, and teams are hitting our defence and going backwards. It's lovely.

 

[Thomond78]

Is Mike Ford for real? All I can say is that if that's his attitude, I hope the AB's tear his defensive system to shreds on the weekend. Not test footy my arse.

Ford is the guy so daft that even Cooder the Vile - COODER THE VILE, mark you! - realised he had to be off-loaded to the Saxon as a Trojan Horse. He buggered up the 2005 Lions. He's overseen England going to hell in defence. Gyppo Jenkins, Llanelli's answer to PdV, thought he was the business. He's a mungoballer.

Tells you all you need to know.

 

[dobduff11]

Christ's teeth - are you, in all seriousness, claiming Mike Trundle is a better 13 than BOD? I mean, seriously?

Thomond im only kidding mate Id say Bod is top but no-one else is really a stand out up north

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Wow.

Ever read the SMH? Spiro? Hell, just about any Aussie journo?

I was referring to us on G&GR T78, calm down mate

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I will also add that if you look at the way England played under Woodward, it wasn't just forward power and defence that won them all those games. They actually played some attractive rugby too, with their outside backs scoring some very nice tries. Jason Robinson anyone? They locked it down a bit for the World Cup, but the footy they played before that was anything but stodgy.

 

[Lee Grant]

Ben Jacobs is a good player and yes he did start alot last season alongside both Waldouck and Kefu. He started a lot?? More than that: he had more game time than any other Wasps player in any position.

This year however the coaches seem to think Flutey and Waldouck are the preferred pair Disagree. Flutey, when fit will be the preferred 12 but Jacobs is the preferred 13. Waudock will float between the two positions and Kefu now he is back will cut down Jacobs time too. Wauldock could end up playing more than Jacobs this year because of Flutey's onging injuries.

The Centre Breakdown is what I believe Jonnos actual rating of the players is and who he is most likely to play. People have picked TIndall before at 12 and I wouldn't be surprised if Jonno did that. I would be surprised unless Hape is dropped or injured and Tait is healthy - and he has picked Tindall at 13 again against the Blacks. I wasn't talking about prior years.

Allen has just been added to the squad and is a decent player, twelvetrees is talented but I have seen him play some absolute shockers for the Tigers A team (development team). He is very inconsistent. 12Trees has only played a few games ever in the Leicester Ones- I only said that in some ways I preferred 12Trees for Leicester (not England) was because of his attributes, not his experience - goal kicking, ability to play 10 etc - more dimensional - he has had to move into 10 because Flood is cotton-woolled for England and Staunton is out for another couple of months. He had a very challenging match v.Gloucester on the weekend as 10 but you'd never have Allen there.

Barkley is fit and is having a good season to date but he is what Mj wants from a 12 Watch the Biarritz game again. Did you see it? Ollie comes up with too many of these lack of bottle games to be picked for England again, but I hope I am wrong and he trots out against Oz.

also waldouck just got injured along with Barritt I believe and is an ok 13 could potentially play there if a few players got injured. Waffle

Delon is playing really well at the moment and played 13 for irish a couple of seasons back when Elvis was injured, could see him there in the future but not now. Agreed; so you shouldn't list him as a 13 ready to go for a big international game - though most likely your lists did not purport to do that, which I suppose is my point and why I say that Jacobs would be considered along with some of the nose pickers you put on the list.

End of Jacobs-would-be-at-least-looked-at-if-he-were-eligible-for-England-considering-all-the-injuries discussion, at least on my part. It's boring now.

 

[RugbyReg]

Sonny time:

1. Tony Woodcock (70)
2. Keven Mealamu (81)
3. Owen Franks (18)
4. Brad Thorn (47)
5. Samuel Whitelock (9)
6. Jerome Kaino (34)
7. Richie McCaw – captain (90)
8. Kieran Read (26)
9. Alby Mathewson (2)
10. Daniel Carter (75)
11. Hosea Gear (2)
12. Ma’a Nonu (53)
13. Sonny Bill Williams *
14. Josevata Rokocoko (67)
15. Mils Muliaina (90)

Reserves:
16. Hikawera Elliot (uncapped)
17. Ben Franks (7)
18. Anthony Boric (16)
19. Liam Messam (5)
20. Andy Ellis (14)
21. Stephen Donald (20)
22. Isaia Toeava (27)

 

[Jnor]

Shheeeeeeiiittt! Now if only there was some way to watch it...

 

[Bullrush]

Yeeeeehaaa!!!!!!

NOW we're talking!!

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I will definitely be searching for a way to watch this game online. Score prediction anyone? I'm thinking 40-10 for the Blackness.

 

[ChargerWA]

I'd be lying if I said I saw that coming. I was expecting maybe an off the bench run against Wales and Scotland.

 

[Thomond78]

I will also add that if you look at the way England played under Woodward, it wasn't just forward power and defence that won them all those games. They actually played some attractive rugby too, with their outside backs scoring some very nice tries. Jason Robinson anyone? They locked it down a bit for the World Cup, but the footy they played before that was anything but stodgy.

Actually, what happened to them was they got traumatised. In 2001, they played some gorgeous rugby. And blew a GS, in the last match. Which was the third one in a row they'd blown, followed by another the next year. About February/March, 2002, the iron entered their soul; they stopped giving a shit about it being pretty rugby, it just had to be winning rugby, by any means necessary. Dayglo and Hill were the absolute keys to that, because they were both guys who would have been players who loved running rugby, and then went out, armed with that knowledge, to kill any oppo ball going. Dead. Win; by any means necessary.

Dayglo did it to us in the 2004 HEC semi (and more or less admits it). At which stage, the iron entered our collective soul, we wised up, stopped relying on refs, and started doing it ourselves. It worked. Leinster, the same, about January/February 2009 (nnnnngggggghhhhh).

 

[Thomond78]

Right.

Looking at that AB team, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if, come Sunday morning, England's collective arse looks like a tanker of red paint exploded in the Channel Tunnel.