Argentina v Australia, Mendoza 4/10/14

[Train Without a Station]

Yes and no..it can work perfectly well provided the playing styles of the subjects complement each other which is different to doing it just to have two open sides on the field.

It only works perfectly if you have a large bodied, line out option between them.

Hooper is a great running 7. That's because he is an option among the 3 back rowers. Pocock would make it only 2 options to mark as he is only effective as a tight runner. That would make both him and Hooper less effective.

Needs to be one, or the other.

 

[Biffo]

Sam has signed with the Pom RU

still leaves three Burgesses available, doesn't it?

 

[ChargerWA]

Probably the wrong thread, but pick your best and see how many of this weekends team get a start or appear on the bench,
1. Slipper / Sio
2. Moore / TPN
3. Kepu /
4. Horwill / Skelton
5. Kane Douglas / Jones
6. Fardy / Jones
7. Hooper (C) / Poey
8. Palu / McCallman
9. NFI - Genia if fit, only after playing a full season to prove himself / Phibbs
10. QC (Quade Cooper) / Foley
11. JOC (James O'Connor) (all the skill, hope his matured into a man)
12. Tooma / Godwin
13. Kuindrani / AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Speight / AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Izzy /
Only half the team started, and i may have left players out, note some of the above may peak late next year (Sio / Jones / Godwin).

He must be playing well at London Irish to leapfrog Phipps, White and Burgess.

 

[KOB1987]

It only works perfectly if you have a large bodied, line out option between them.

Hooper is a great running 7. That's because he is an option among the 3 back rowers. Pocock would make it only 2 options to mark as he is only effective as a tight runner. That would make both him and Hooper less effective.

Needs to be one, or the other.

Yeah it's a bit of a thing for us that our specialist flankers always seem to be short isn't it.

I get what you are saying but provided they both aren't ridiculously short and you have plenty of line out height in your locks and 8 does height matter that much? And your other issues would by covered by the variation I mentioned would they not?

 

[Train Without a Station]

If you have players like Sam Warbuton, Chris Robson, Richie McCaw, Marcel Cotzee or Schalk Burger it's fine. They are all quality line out jumpers and all around 105Kg or heavier.

It's not just the height of Pocock and Hooper. It's the height, but now it's not just the height that's the issue. Because of their height they have never been jumpers, and therefore have not developed the skill. Now you would be asking them to develop it and go against physically superior players.

 

[KOB1987]

I think both Pocock and Hooper would be offended if you suggested they were physically inferior..but no I'm not saying you'd ask them to develop the skill of lineout jumping, they don't have to if you have your jumpers elsewhere..Pocock does jump at the back for the Brumbies anyway doesn't he? Both of them are 1.84m and >100kg, it's not as though they are midgets.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Considering the best line out jumpers are tall, lanky with long arms, I think it's fair to say in regards to line out jumping, both are physically inferior.

Both have been used as a jumper in games. But I'd also guess that both have taken less than 10 line outs in their career.

In a line out you attempt to "win the ball on the ground" first and foremast. Meaning you attempt to beat the other team into the air unopposed. That's one facet of it. But a good jumper can also compete in the air. That's where players like Whitelock, Matfield, Sharpe, Simmons, etc. are superior players to other line out options. If you fail to win the line out on the ground, you aim to win it in the air through maneuvering and getting yourself highest at the peak of the throw to beat your opposition. In this aspect Hooper or Pocock would get absolutely slaughtered.

With regards to lining up generally at 2 you will have one jumper with a prop either side. From there you will have another 4 players. If out of those 4, only 2 are real options it's a lot easier to mark up on than if it's 3 or all 4 and you can run a shuffling option on the back man or something similar.

If only two are options you will line up something like

L - J - L - J - L - L - J. Opposition just need to watch the second lifter to determine if it's going to 2 or 4, and the second jumper to determine if he it's going to him (and he shapes to jump) or the third jumper (and the second jumper will turn to lift.

 

[KOB1987]

I'm not suggesting you'd mark Hooper up against Matfield I'm just saying they aren't that small that they can't hold their own up the back..less than ideal as far as lineouts are concerned, I would concede that, but as a coach/selector you'd need to weigh that up against the other pros & cons in the areas that make up the other 95% of game time..

 

[ForceFan]

Anthilaur you are absolutely off you're head if you think Pocock is our best possible captain. It's a matter of opinion which is a better 7 but Pocock has had a crack at being test captain and was arguably worse than Hooper. In that game he was supported by Genia and Moore.

Totally agree with your comments re Pocock.

Pocock was made Captain of the Western Force at the request of the ARU and in an effort to keep him at the Force. Up until that time he hadn't even been a member of the leadership group. He struggled in this role because his immaturity on all fronts. He was also still very focused on his own game.

His departure from the Force after only one year in the Captain's role was as much a sign of his immaturity as it was of the shambolic management of the Force (or lack of) under Richard Graham and Vern Reid.

Pocock had problems relating to many of the more experienced/older players in both the Force and Wallabies.

I hope that Pocock returns to playing top rugby in 2015 but he should be allowed to concentrate on his own game in order to do so.

Hooper has Slipper and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to call upon for advice but I have seen few signs that he either calls upon their inputs or feels the need to do so. On-field leadership for the Wallabies appears to be sadly lacking.

However, I'm unsure of Moore is the answer as he reportedly shows a somewhat non-inclusive attitude to newer members of the squad. The Captain should be there for the whole team. Obviously he's allowed to have mates - but not favourites.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Who is offering odds on Pocock even getting back to test rugby?

 

[Train Without a Station]

@Kob

My point is that it limits the options the other team has to defend. Considering the ball is in play for 30 minutes of less most games, line outs make up 10-20% of the actual game really.

The thing about fetchers, is I think that people they just steal the ball at will. This is not the case. To pilfer, there needs to be an opportunity to pilfer. This opportunity comes about due to error from the attacking team.

If both teams go into a ruck, with perfect support and technique, the attacking team gets the ball. Why? Because you take the ball in, maintain your feet until you are sure support is there, and then hit the ground, with them immediately forming the ruck. From there you cannot compete for the ball.

In order to make a pilfer you require any of the following to occur:

a) a dominant tackle which prevents you from maintaining your feet;
b) a dominant tackle leaving the player unable to place the ball properly;
c) a dominant tackle which drives you backwards, thus meaning support needs to turn around, run back to enter the gate;
d) support players to not be there, or be too late;
e) support players to be inaccurate and not bridge over the ball, thus preventing hands in the ruck; or
f) a referee who fails to officiate the breakdown properly.

All of this all the while when the opposition is attempting to do everything properly.

A lot of it requires error from the other team to gain benefit.

@Forcefan

I think Pocock would definitely struggle to relate to other players. That's why I think he makes a poor captain. He's ultra-professional and other players are less so, this surely would be difficult for him to lead in this type of environment.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

there's an argument that the fetcher is no longer a necessary part of a team because there is really only 1 phase on which he's got any real chance of being first there

 

[Athilnaur]

On the lasers

Needs to be nipped in the bud by the whole union in my view. Yes our part is to cease play. But there also needs to be a concerted effort to stamp it out. Automatic concession of points is an option as this only happens in Argentina. A free call dob in line would also be an idea - text the seat numbers. None of these things alone is enough, but combined, with the backing of the unions you could stamp it out to a large degree. It would require police to take action but the consequences would be something, I don't imagine a night in an Argie cell is pleasant. Bloody hard to prove though you'd think without some cameras dedicated for the purpose of identifying offenders.

 

[Athilnaur]

On Pocock as a leader TWAS I disagree. He showed good patience and leadership in the Welsh tests after a poor decision (in hindsight) in the Scots test. And we have seen many of our Captains make that mistake at test and sxv level. Of all our players he'd be my pick save only Moore and Horwill. The point is those three Pocock, Moore, Horwill have the character and experience. And I am particularly open to Horwill if he re-masters his game.

As for the Force comments by some, not going there. Grape, meet sour.

 

[Dave Beat]

I'll throw out the question/s again.

What makes a good coach, what makes a good captain.
Was it Rod McQueen or was it John Eales who guided us on the good run.
Do you pick a team, or a game plan first.

For what it's worth I like Hooper as a Captain, and hope it is the start of a new era and the team grows around him. He has consistently gone the full 80 and leads by example.

Hooper stays captain.


Lets look at some other results of the RC this year.
Round one SA 13 - Argie 6 (close)
Round two SA 33 - Argie 31 (very close)
We were leading with 10 to go against Sth Africa last week, a team we hadn't beaten over there for over 20 years at that venue (we had no bench).
There were some stupid choices yesterday (kicks), how many times did we play greater than 7 phases, earn the right to go wide, 2 YC's, a 16 / 8 penalty count, a scrum that got smashed.
Could the Argie's have improved - i mean 33 - 31 against the team that beat the AB's on the weekend.

Yeah i hate loosing, yes we could have built phases, stopped the stupid kicks, but who thinks Argentina played well. I do, they played to their strengths.

Guess what, last time we lost to them we won the following world cup.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

On the lasers

Needs to be nipped in the bud by the whole union in my view. Yes our part is to cease play. But there also needs to be a concerted effort to stamp it out. Automatic concession of points is an option as this only happens in Argentina. A free call dob in line would also be an idea - text the seat numbers. None of these things alone is enough, but combined, with the backing of the unions you could stamp it out to a large degree. It would require police to take action but the consequences would be something, I don't imagine a night in an Argie cell is pleasant. Bloody hard to prove though you'd think without some cameras dedicated for the purpose of identifying offenders.

Every stadium hosting matches at this level will have a high-tech security system (Mendoza's is a Bosch system btw) capable of IDing morons who throw things, point lasers, etc. What's needed is security staff who actually do their fucking job & eject said morons.

If the security gorillas can spot my mate drinking out've a hip flask at Westpac & give him the option of surrendering it or his ticket, they can sure as fuck do the same for laser pointers, coin throwers, etc.

 

[KOB1987]

Who is offering odds on Pocock even getting back to test rugby?

To be honest if someone is and they are short I won't be taking them..I don't think it will happen

BTW, the catalyst for this topic was how you would go about getting both of them on in the line-up should you so desire, not necessarily whether or not it should be done..but if I was the coach and I had the Hooper of now and the Pocock of old I'd sure as hell try to find a way!

I have a strong suspicion it's an entirely academic proposition..

 

[Wilson]

Every stadium hosting matches at this level will have a high-tech security system (Mendoza's is a Bosch system btw) capable of IDing morons who throw things, point lasers, etc. What's needed is security staff who actually do their fucking job & eject said morons.

If the security gorillas can spot my mate drinking out've a hip flask at Westpac & give him the option of surrendering it or his ticket, they can sure as fuck do the same for laser pointers, coin throwers, etc.

Yeah lasers should, in theory, be reasonably easy to pinpoint. They don't seem to have any trouble identifying the idiots who shine them at planes.

 

[Tomikin]

Next time the Argies come to Australia we can gather up all the empty plastic beer cups, make them into two 20 metre beer snakes and substitute their goal posts for them. No way the Argies will pot any goals with the bend on those babies. Who needs lasers!

Or alternatively, have it so long that you can wack him on the head with it as his about to kick.

 

[Tomikin]

I think Pocock would definitely struggle to relate to other players. That's why I think he makes a poor captain. He's ultra-professional and other players are less so, this surely would be difficult for him to lead in this type of environment.

His a bit of a hippy as well