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Bobby Sands
Guest
Colby signs with Lyon.
Aussie Player Exodus
- Thread starter swingpass
- Start date
Dctarget
John Eales (66)
Gill coming home?
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Bobby Sands
Guest
I doubt it, but imagine.
About time to send Hooper & his close eyes to Europe. It would genuinely be good for him to get out of Australia before the next World Cup.
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
No going to Japan.
Dctarget
John Eales (66)
New Crackpot Theory on Returning Aussie Players (involving a healthy dose of Brexit)
After watching Dupont absolutely dominate Ben Youngs in every facet of the game, I'm curious to why there's no one better than Youngs. Everyone seems to agree he's well past it but it seems like there's no one else. I reckon this is the ramifications of England's pilfering of foreign talent. They have 13 teams but with scrumhalf being such a pivotal and unique position there's not too many opportunities to develop them. Here's a list of foreign scrumhalves who have played this season in the Premiership:
That's a lot of experience being taken away from young English scrumhalves. Will this dearth of talent prompt the RFU to alter their rules on foreign players in the Premiership? Well maybe not on its own...
But
After Brexit comes into effect, their ability to field foreign players may dramatically change. The Premiership's current rule on foreign players is that a team can field no more than 2 foreign players on the field at any one time. Interestingly, foreign does not equal non English. They follow the precedent set in a 1995 EU case called the Bosman Ruling. Where EU players are treated as other EU workers who can travel & work freely within the EU. So, Bristol could field as many Georgians, Italians, Scots and Welsh as they want, as long as they only have one Kiwi and Aussie for example. Whilst that's not very helpful for developing depth for England it is great for clubs to find talent. So, after Brexit comes into effect English players are no longer afforded the freedom of movement within the EU and vice versa. Meaning all non english players suddenly become a lot less valuable as you can no longer stack your team full of them. Hopefully this all means we'll see England's capacity to poach Aussie talent severely reduced.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
EDIT:
Apologies - actually did a bit more research after posting this and found the Kolpak case which also affects EU sports. Kolpak affords any person from a country that has signed a European Union Association Agreement to have free travel & work within the EU (importantly for Rugby: Fiji, South Africa, Tonga & Samoa). So, really players from Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Argentina are the main countries affected if England manage to sign a EUAA before the next season. If not, come on home Willy Skelton.
After watching Dupont absolutely dominate Ben Youngs in every facet of the game, I'm curious to why there's no one better than Youngs. Everyone seems to agree he's well past it but it seems like there's no one else. I reckon this is the ramifications of England's pilfering of foreign talent. They have 13 teams but with scrumhalf being such a pivotal and unique position there's not too many opportunities to develop them. Here's a list of foreign scrumhalves who have played this season in the Premiership:
- Cobus Reinach (South Africa)
- Ben Meehan (Aus)
- Nick Phipps (Aus)
- Callum Braley (Italy)
- Faf De Klerk (South Africa)
- Michael Heaney (Ireland)
- Jono Kitto (New Zealand)
- Martin Landajo (Argentina)
- Nic White (Aus)
- Nic Stirzaker (Aus)
- Charlie Chaplin (Scotland)
- Scott Steele (Scotland)
- Francois Hougaard (South Africa)
That's a lot of experience being taken away from young English scrumhalves. Will this dearth of talent prompt the RFU to alter their rules on foreign players in the Premiership? Well maybe not on its own...
But
After Brexit comes into effect, their ability to field foreign players may dramatically change. The Premiership's current rule on foreign players is that a team can field no more than 2 foreign players on the field at any one time. Interestingly, foreign does not equal non English. They follow the precedent set in a 1995 EU case called the Bosman Ruling. Where EU players are treated as other EU workers who can travel & work freely within the EU. So, Bristol could field as many Georgians, Italians, Scots and Welsh as they want, as long as they only have one Kiwi and Aussie for example. Whilst that's not very helpful for developing depth for England it is great for clubs to find talent. So, after Brexit comes into effect English players are no longer afforded the freedom of movement within the EU and vice versa. Meaning all non english players suddenly become a lot less valuable as you can no longer stack your team full of them. Hopefully this all means we'll see England's capacity to poach Aussie talent severely reduced.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
EDIT:
Apologies - actually did a bit more research after posting this and found the Kolpak case which also affects EU sports. Kolpak affords any person from a country that has signed a European Union Association Agreement to have free travel & work within the EU (importantly for Rugby: Fiji, South Africa, Tonga & Samoa). So, really players from Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Argentina are the main countries affected if England manage to sign a EUAA before the next season. If not, come on home Willy Skelton.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
I actually think we don't need Skeleton, he's shown a number of times he's not able to perform the same as he does outside of that system. Rodda is locked in, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) is probably a going to be playing second row (given the glut of young backrowers the Reds have), and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) looked quite good against the Brumies. We also have Simmons if we ever want/need that 'experience', but otherwise we have Swain, Enever, Frost, Hayley-Petty, Phillip, Hockings, Blyth. Lock is not a position we are short of potential Wallabies in.
Derpus
George Gregan (70)
None of these players have any of Skelton's experience, success (Super, Premiership and European Champion) or recent form.
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
Are they players of quality or is it just a bunch of guys all around the same level that gives an illusion that there is depth in the locking position? It’s still our weakest position in Australia. I dare say our 3rd, 4th, 5th choice locks are producing less headaches for opposition coaches than our 3rd, 4th, 5th choice front row, back row, centres, wings and full back options. The emergence of some young talent at 9 and 10 hopefully rectifies some issues there.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
Looking further afield, the arguably best performing Lock in the NRC was Fergus Lee-Warner at the Force. He consistently performed as good as, or better than, the likes of Enever, Hockings and Blyth etc. Maybe there is potential to test RA's good intentions about the Force and see how he could perform off the bench later in the year. But I guess not.
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Bobby Sands
Guest
Conspiracy: Do you reckon the Rebels played half cocked in the NRC so that if they were beaten by the Force it would be more explainable?
Skelton has developed into a rather good tight lock in a properly good side, the others listed above all play below his standard and are not near his level as a partner for Rodda
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
I feel like a lot of our locks just hit their peak before heading aboard. The Arnolds, Carter, Skelton were only starting to play some of their best rugby. Coleman is a shame too, though I think he might have needed a change of scene as he'd seemed to plateau somewhat down at the Rebels. Imagine those older heads still sprinkled amongst the youth for another year to two.
I'd love to see some creative co-sharing agreement with say Japan to keep some of the players towards the end of their career still in Super Rugby. Loose too much Rugby IQ too early to my mind.
Look at players like Jack Cornelsen and Dylan Riley. They get to run around with the likes of Pocock, Whitelock and de Allende at the Panasonic Wild Knights. Not a bad bunch to be learning off.
Dismal Pillock
Simon Poidevin (60)
yeah turns out I dont understand these "sabbaticals" at all.
the very top blokes get em I presume in order to lengthen their careers. but then they pocket the $$ and bugger off to Japan and lengthen their careers over there. Thanx for the 6 months paid time off, suckers
eg, NZ gets the grand total of SFA by giving BFA a paid sabbatical when he fucks off overseas 3 minutes after the sabbatical ends. I guess for players like that who are pretty much done at the very top level its just a golden parachute? So why fucken pay it? Unless its clearly some "loyalty payment" just cut bait 6 months early. Thanks for the memories, boss. It's not like RA/NZRFU can afford to shell out for golden parachutes. how much test/soup rugby did, say, Pocock play after his sabbatical ended and before he shot thru to Japan? It felt like he very conveniently retired from test rugby as soon as the RA paid holiday ended oh shit, I could be in trouble now, hold me mummy
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
Haha... to be fair to Pocock I think it's a misunderstanding that he was paid for his year away. It's my understanding that he was paid for his time in Australian rugby when here and negotiated a non-paid year to go off and do some other things including protecting his body from a pretty harsh role. So no, I don't think he received a paid holiday as many people say.
Would a similar player get the same deal today with hindsight, I'm not so sure but then the laws around the breakdown also evolved somewhat between the most recent and earlier world cup such that his effectiveness diminished somewhat and to be honest his body only really just made it even with his sabbatical year so it probably wasn't the worst thing for him.
I think RA/NZRU would be silly not to be exploring options and NZRU seem to see it as part of their contract negotiation packages these days. I just think it's a shame players of his ilk arn't around for the next generation to keep learning from.
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
From David Pocock Sep 23 2018:
After I agreed to sign for 2018 and 2019 they asked if they could average some payments across the three years instead of just two, which is apparently not uncommon
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
So he wasn't paid for the year off, just spread his payments. So no, he wasn't technically 'paid' for the year, just had an arrangement to receive some income for those other paid periods during that year. Sacrificing some income on one year to spread over another is not uncommon in a number of industries. If he'd played that year I guess his total yearly income would have been higher. Probably wasn't a bad compromise for both parties.
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
Yep, I see the cash flow benefits for RA.
The article went on to say because of the assumption Pocock was getting paid to have his sabbatical, some incoming funds for his charities dried up.
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
Sad. Some rather erroneous reporting. A lot of 'paid sabbatical' lines in articles but I guess with all the cuts to journalism who has time to actually check things. I guess with the budget cuts to journalism who has time to actually fact check.
True. Although it should be routine that they do. In the same way that the Reffing stats put up here by Rebel3 were repeated all over the media with no real suggestion anyone checked or correlated them. And that is no slight on his stats at all, just amazed me how quickly they got reposted all over the web. The Pocock one was worse.