Australia v England

[The Honey Badger]

I see Matt Burke has pointed to Genia as a player past his use by date.

It's a shame that his 100th test was a bit of a shocker. I actually think his recent form has been pretty good. He been in the 1-2-3 mix in virtually every test he has played.

But whoever is the next 9 needed to get more game time on this tour. And that would appear to be Phipps.

 

[wamberal]

Phipps. Foley. Is that really the best we can do?

 

[Silverado]

just rewatched 1st half on 1.25 speed

3 runs 0 m, 1.5m, 2.5m, that's 4m total
1 penalty given away
1 missed tackle
1 cover tackle
4 or 5 tackles with opponent running into him

must have had a big 2nd half as sio and kepu to name two did far more

Sio and Kepu struggled at their prime objective of holding up the scrum

 

[Kenny Powers]

Another question for Australian Rugby, Will Skelton has been turned in a far superior player by the English club system?

Australian rugby and the Waratahs should hang their heads in shame. We are ranked 7th in world and it is thoroughly deserved.

 

[RedsHappy]

When the australian players play overseas their skills are quite decent.

When they play here, they seemingly can't execute the simplest of skills like catching or passing left to right.

I find it impossible to believe that the coaches in Australia are not trying to train these skills here (even the best of musicians do scales as a matter of routine and there's no way coaches here would damage their careers intentionally, surely). Mick Byrne was highly regarded by NZ setup, but seemingly can't do anything with our players here in Australia????

Is there some kind of organised body here in Australia that has some kind of collective power to set limitations on the amount and type of training that the players are allowed to do in a given period of time that somehow hampers what the coaches are trying to do with their teams? One that has 100% membership maybe, so has all the bargaining chips when it comes to negotiations with RA and the super rugby teams, yet doesn't exist overseas and therefore can't dictate terms to the European clubs?

Apropos re what B Dwyer had to say about all this - and why - today:

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/11/27/dwyer-calls-for-more-overseas-players

See also post # 524 directly above.

 

[Derpus]

Has Skelton actually been playing well though, or has he just lost weight?

 

[Kenny Powers]

Has Skelton actually been playing well though, or has he just lost weight?

More likely you will play better when you are not carrying around an extra 15kg, almost a bag of cement! Next time you play some touch carry around a bag of cement and see if you play well.

You have to get players to an ideal weight to give them the best chance to play well and Australian rugby has not been doing that. Too many players who were place on an undeserving pedestal at schoolboy level and life is comfy custard for them and they carry their deficiencies thru to the Wallabies.

 

[The Nomad]

We just need to pick our best possible team regardless of where they are playing their rugby . Australia doesn’t have the depth to not pick talent playing OS , nor does RA have the cash to keep all of our up and coming talent ( possible futures stars ) playing rugby here in Australia .

Look at the quality players who have left our shores in the past few years , they are not all riding off into the sunset looking to top up their superannuation. Some have left in the prime of their careers and I hate to admit , but are now better rugby players for it .

Agree with the comments above , sad indictment of our systems ( read 5 year contracts for players as an example ) and we cannot afford not to pick the best possible players for the Wallabies.

 

[Quick Hands]

Territory in the modern game is worth far more than possession.

There's no way you take 3 when 17 down to get pinned back in your 22.

Unless you don't get pinned in your 22

 

[Derpus]

We just need to pick our best possible team regardless of where they are playing their rugby . Australia doesn’t have the depth to not pick talent playing OS , nor does RA have the cash to keep all of our up and coming talent ( possible futures stars ) playing rugby here in Australia .

Look at the quality players who have left our shores in the past few years , they are not all riding off into the sunset looking to top up their superannuation. Some have left in the prime of their careers and I hate to admit , but are now better rugby players for it .

Agree with the comments above , sad indictment of our systems ( read 5 year contracts for players as an example ) and we cannot afford not to pick the best possible players for the Wallabies.

Yeah but then you can kiss goodbye whatever is left of Super rugby and after 5 years there goes whatever depth we had for good.

 

[RugbyReg]

We just need to pick our best possible team regardless of where they are playing their rugby . Australia doesn’t have the depth to not pick talent playing OS , nor does RA have the cash to keep all of our up and coming talent ( possible futures stars ) playing rugby here in Australia .

Look at the quality players who have left our shores in the past few years , they are not all riding off into the sunset looking to top up their superannuation. Some have left in the prime of their careers and I hate to admit , but are now better rugby players for it .

Agree with the comments above , sad indictment of our systems ( read 5 year contracts for players as an example ) and we cannot afford not to pick the best possible players for the Wallabies.

what players overseas would be in our best 23? Just Fardy and McMahon?

I just worry that if you open the floodgates every goes and the domestic comp is devalued. We end up with an A-League type comp

 

[southsider]

what players overseas would be in our best 23? Just Fardy?

I was about to ask the same thing, there would be a handful if that, who would make the wallabies squad. Not enough to warrant butchering our flimsy hold on super rugby

 

[Purce]

Maybe most wouldn't make the 23 but it's the competition it creates for those positions. There are a heap of talented players overseas who probably could have performed than majority of our squad this year.

Frady, McMahon, Gill, Skelton, Timani, Holmes, Hanson, Horwill, Dennis, Mowen, Tomane, Morohan, Pyle, and a heap of others.

Plus you then have some players like Teo who 2ould choose to represent Australia instead of another nation.

I dont know what the answer is but it would certainly make us more competitive

 

[jimmydubs]

I was thinking a 6. Fardy. 7. Gill. 8. Higgers backrow wouldve been more balanced and suited than the backrow we had. Thats 2 x OS and 1 x unwanted.

 

[southsider]

Maybe most wouldn't make the 23 but it's the competition it creates for those positions. There are a heap of talented players overseas who probably could have performed than majority of our squad this year.

Frady, McMahon, Gill, Skelton, Timani, Holmes, Hanson, Horwill, Dennis, Mowen, Tomane, Morohan, Pyle, and a heap of others.

Plus you then have some players like Teo who 2ould choose to represent Australia instead of another nation.

I dont know what the answer is but it would certainly make us more competitive

There’s not that many, I’d literally take fardy, McMahon, Gill, Mowen and possibly Skelton from that list....and there’s not “a heap of others” only other two names i can think of that would be considered is white and O’conner. 5 odd players that would make a wallaby extended squad is not worth opening the flood gates and getting our entire professional player base shifting to Europe or Japan.

Can’t really think of another example of someone like Ben Te’o and you have absolutely zero idea whether he would’ve chosen Australia or England given the chance between the two.

 

[USARugger]

Has Skelton actually been playing well though, or has he just lost weight?

He's started in all but something like 2 of Saracens games so far this year and has been playing well for them, hard to get a spot in that pack if you're not actually good.

 

[Purce]

There’s not that many, I’d literally take fardy, McMahon, Gill, Mowen and possibly Skelton from that list..and there’s not “a heap of others” only other two names i can think of that would be considered is white and O’conner. 5 odd players that would make a wallaby extended squad is not worth opening the flood gates and getting our entire professional player base shifting to Europe or Japan.

Can’t really think of another example of someone like Ben Te’o and you have absolutely zero idea whether he would’ve chosen Australia or England given the chance between the two.

There are a heap more players (players of quality and potential, which was my point I was referring to) plying their trade overseas. I wrote "a heap more" because I'm not going to list every australian player not playing in oz.

It is no secret that Te'o strongly preferred to play for the wallabies and bent over backwards to make it happen only to be screwed around by chieka(who is notorious amongst the playing group when it comes to negotiations). Eddie jumped straight on him when he heard what had happened. Just because you have zero idea about something perhaps you shouldn't assume that someone else doesnt have an idea.

I'm not for completely opening the doors for all overseas players being selected. Having only had a short think about it I believe they would have to fulfill certain criteria such as playing at a certain level of rugby(eg not playing in a Spanish competition which they joined to basically have a holiday), there must be some clause that they have to give back to australian rugby somehow. It wouldn't be bad financially for other countries to perhaps take the more expensive players off our hands which would open up more contracts for players we lose to other codes. Plus as many have noted pretty much every player who has gone north has improved.

The concept absolutely has legs but it has to have boundaries and inplemented... problem is RA will be the ones doing both which means it would likely he a fuck up.

 

[Quick Hands]

He's started in all but something like 2 of Saracens games so far this year and has been playing well for them, hard to get a spot in that pack if you're not actually good.

When Beale came back from England, he was a much better player but has now regressed.

The coaching and structures in place would seem much better than our players get here (Hickey, Foley, Graham, Magann, Gibson et al)

 

[Quick Hands]

Apropos re what B Dwyer had to say about all this - and why - today:

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/11/27/dwyer-calls-for-more-overseas-players

See also post # 524 directly above.

Just thought I'd add this:

The cupboard is bare, evident by the results of Australia's under-20 program, which has failed to register even a top-four finish at the world championships since 2011, while the national schoolboys side has not beaten New Zealand in six years.

 

[Rugrat]

As a rugby tragic, I watch a lot of the English premiership. I hate to say it. But I prefer the English comp to super rugby. Good and great players and depth in talent across a competition that values all aspects of the game. Good commentary teams and venues that suit the game ie rectangular stadiums and in a size that suits the crowd numbers. A lot more games and a lot more revenue from ticket sales and tv rights. That comp is only going to grow. French and pro 14 also growing. The Most jobs for players is in Europe. There simply isnt enough money and opportunity in Australia to keep the talent. Rattling off players names that might make it isn’t the issue. We just need to accept that having a bigger selection bucket can only help the cause for the wallabies. On top of that why deny an Aussie a chance to represent his or her country? We will start losing more and more of our young talent to that part of the world before they even get a chance for wallaby selection so the whole 60 game rule becomes redundant anyway.