Bledisloe 2 - Wallabies vs All Blacks, Wellington, 27 August 2016

[tragic]

He seemed to be doing a perfectly good job previously.

The issue is as much a lack of other options.

Hooper was a pretty obvious choice at age 22 when Moore got injured against France a couple of years ago. That says a huge amount about the leadership options.

Pocock has had a pretty mixed history as captain and there isn't a lot to suggest he'd be a substantially better option now but it certainly looks like it is worth giving him another crack.

If Moore goes it has to be someone whose position is secure.
Based on Sat that leaves pocock, folau, and maybe genia. The props won't change but the starters will probably shuffle based on form.
And for obvious reasons that leaves only pocock as a realistic option.

 

[KOB1987]

If Moore goes it has to be someone whose position is secure.
Based on Sat that leaves pocock, folau, and maybe genia. The props won't change but the starters will probably shuffle based on form.
And for obvious reasons that leaves only pocock as a realistic option.

Hooper is pretty safe too I think. Pocock made all the pilfers but hooper made all the tackles, he didn't miss one in fact. Given pocock is outa here hoopers even more realistic.

 

[Twoilms]

I don't really understand why we can't do what the English have done fairly successfully. Get a bunch of young, talented players and train them as a team. The lack of cohesion is so painfully obvious and i refuse to buy this 'we lack the young talent' bullshit. We have the talent it just doesn't get nurtured. I don't know about other teams in detail but the Tahs have players like Holloway, Kellaway, Robertson etc. coming through who could all be class with training and experience. Players like Timani and Coleman could both easily develop into better players than bloody Simmons and Douglas.

To that end i say we play the kids, ditch the tried and failed and actually put some time into developing a team with an emphasis on a common skillset and gameplan as well as transceding state rivalries. Even if it means short term losses. Heck even if we lose every game this season. Delayed gratification works in every other aspect of life, why not rugby?

 

[Lorenzo]

I'll extend that concept to bringing players back from Britain or France to play for the Wallabies. IMO it is poor policy long term. This is not a reflection of the abiliity of the players concerned, just a reflection of their geography.

You can play for the Wallabies or you can go to France. I respect every player's right to choose either option, it's just that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I think you are being kind. In the wallaby 2016 thread I questioned the merits of the French connection (mg, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Dm)and was criticised on the basis that we are better with them in the team and that we should pick the best side available.

I am absolutely unconvinced that we are better with them in the team. Even before his injury, giteau looked slow, old and shit with the boot. I've watched him play for Toulon this year and he looked the same as he looked before - he runs across the paddock and backs himself against bigger faster players with predictable consequences. When was the last time AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) did anything notable in gold? TK was an absolute rock in defence - as usual - yet because he didn't bust their line open half the board thinks he ought to be dropped. Ashley-cooper's defence has been steadily detoriating over years which is fair enough as he has lots of miles on the clock and is pushing his mid 30s. If Mitchell is such a fucking stud that makes our side better, why wasn't he in the 23? Did we bring him back so giteau doesn't get lonely or something?

Genia is a bit different because he is young enough that it's conceivable we might be able to use him if he starts performing well, but nevertheless I agree with you that it's either the NH or gold, not both.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I don't really understand why we can't do what the English have done fairly successfully. Get a bunch of young, talented players and train them as a team. The lack of cohesion is so painfully obvious and i refuse to buy this 'we lack the young talent' bullshit. We have the talent it just doesn't get nurtured. I don't know about other teams in detail but the Tahs have players like Holloway, Kellaway, Robertson etc. coming through who could all be class with training and experience. Players like Timani and Coleman could both easily develop into better players than bloody Simmons and Douglas.

England have made the U20 wc final 7 out of 9 times. We've made it once.

Relatively, we may not have the talent.

Edit - add in more than 100 Aussies playing Pro Rugby elsewhere as well....

 

[Simon.]

The problem IMO isn't the Giteau Clause, it just needs to be more judiciously applied.

Just because you have a bunch of European players available doesn't mean you bring them all home, particularly backs who are well into their 30s when there are viable options at home. They should only be brought back when there is an obvious hole in the available local talent, or a player with skills or in red hot form.

I can understand bringing back Giteau and Genia, as we had obvious issues at 12 and 9 against England, but adding Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is overkill and together the four of them are standing in the way of guys like Hodge, Kerevi and Naivalu (having just checked on Google, Sefa is eligible next month!).

 

[Quick Hands]

England have made the U20 wc final 7 out of 9 times. We've made it once.

Relatively, we may not have the talent.

Edit - add in more than 100 Aussies playing Pro Rugby elsewhere as well..

We're generally in the 5 v 6 playoff these days.

I remember when we used to snigger at the lack of sporting success by the poms across the sporting spectrum. I think it's fair to say that they are doing the sniggering now (See also Olympic medal tally)

 

[tragic]

Hooper is pretty safe too I think. Pocock made all the pilfers but hooper made all the tackles, he didn't miss one in fact. Given pocock is outa here hoopers even more realistic.

Hooper has to make the starting side first.
Tackling is only one of the attributes needed from a 6/8 - jumping in the lineout and impact/work in contact being the most obvious.
Half the posters on this forum recognise the pooper has run its course.
He's a super sub till our best 7 goes on his sabbatical then he can have a crack.
Plus he doesn't have the smarts to be captain.

 

[Bullrush]

The ABs wouldn't swap. I'd wager. Watch what they do, and it isn't his strength, as good as he is. Cane can pilfer well, but he was more about smashing blokes. Pocock is a very good tackler, but he isn't a basher. I reckon if we did a straw poll of our Kiwi posters, few would pick Pocock over Cane or Savea. Other teams may well. Just my opinion.

I'd take Pocock over Cane in a heartbeat. Savea is interesting but today I'd still take Pocock. McCaw wasn't really a basher either but if you put Pocock in the ABs with that pack - he'd be unbelievable I reckon.

I've been against bringing Wallabies back since it was introduced. It's a bad idea on so many levels.

I'd have Pocock and Fardy starting with whoever you think the best 8 is - MacCalman, Timani - whoever. If nothing else, promising young players will see that the opportunity to become a Wallaby is very real and hopefully the next 12 months sees some great competition for that 8 jersey.

Edit: there is no quick fix for your current No.8 situation but shifting the best 7 in the world to try and fix it is not a great answer. Shifting him to make room for another 7 who is considerably below his playing standard also make little sense.

 

[KOB1987]

Hooper has to make the starting side first.
Tackling is only one of the attributes needed from a 6/8 - jumping in the lineout and impact/work in contact being the most obvious.
Half the posters on this forum recognise the pooper has run its course.
He's a super sub till our best 7 goes on his sabbatical then he can have a crack.
Plus he doesn't have the smarts to be captain.

I know, I'm one of those said posters. But it's also been determined that it's both likely and logical to persist with it due to the absence of a traditional #8 that makes any impact. At least for this weekend anyway. Even if one of the 7s does end up being used as a super sub you can be rest assured they are still going to be on the field at the same time.

 

[notapatrioticboneinme]

The difference I notice between the ABs and the Wallabies (and the Boks for that matter) - is there seems to be significant further development of skills once they reach AB level....

'Pulling on' the AB jumper means more to their players than 'pulling on' the Wallaby jumper for ours, yes?

 

[cyclopath]

I'd take Pocock over Cane in a heartbeat. Savea is interesting but today I'd still take Pocock. McCaw wasn't really a basher either but if you put Pocock in the ABs with that pack - he'd be unbelievable I reckon.

I've been against bringing Wallabies back since it was introduced. It's a bad idea on so many levels.

I'd have Pocock and Fardy starting with whoever you think the best 8 is - MacCalman, Timani - whoever. If nothing else, promising young players will see that the opportunity to become a Wallaby is very real and hopefully the next 12 months sees some great competition for that 8 jersey.

Fair enough. I've certainly read differing views on another site in the past. I've no doubt he'd work well with the AB pack (that's a given! ), as I think he's a very, very good player. Perhaps "basher" was the wrong term. Pocock is a great tackler, and obviously very strong over the ball, but watching the way the ABs forwards go about things over the past couple of years, it struck me that he played differently to any of the back rowers, McCaw included, who became less and less a pilferer as his career went on. Their back row seems to have a different balance. But I get what you're saying.

 

[Bullrush]

Fair enough. I've certainly read differing views on another site in the past. I've no doubt he'd work well with the AB pack (that's a given! ), as I think he's a very, very good player. Perhaps "basher" was the wrong term. Pocock is a great tackler, and obviously very strong over the ball, but watching the way the ABs forwards go about things over the past couple of years, it struck me that he played differently to any of the back rowers, McCaw included, who became less and less a pilferer as his career went on. Their back row seems to have a different balance. But I get what you're saying.

Yeah, you actually made me think about when was the last really recognised pilferer the ABs had and I don't think they have had one for a while. Maybe you can rely on that person too much and having a team strategy that is based more on dominant tackles and then strong counter-ruck and great break-downs is more wffective and reliable. As much as people joke about McCaw's cloak of invisibility, I think he actually got pinged a lot more in the 2nd half of his career and he had to adjust his game accordingly. He really wasn't much of the prolific pilferer he was when started.

Pocock in the AB pack would be an absolute menace. He is a freak over the ball and without the extra load I think he carries playing for the Wallabies, it would be like unleashing a demon. And just the AB environment would push him even harder to be better.

Damn - I wish Pocock was an All Black just for one Test series now I'm thinking about it.

 

[cyclopath]

Yeah, you actually made me think about when was the last really recognised pilferer the ABs had and I don't think they have had one for a while. Maybe you can rely on that person too much and having a team strategy that is based more on dominant tackles and then strong counter-ruck and great break-downs is more wffective and reliable. As much as people joke about McCaw's cloak of invisibility, I think he actually got pinged a lot more in the 2nd half of his career and he had to adjust his game accordingly. He really wasn't much of the prolific pilferer he was when started.

Pocock in the AB pack would be an absolute menace. He is a freak over the ball and without the extra load I think he carries playing for the Wallabies, it would be like unleashing a demon. And just the AB environment would push him even harder to be better.

Damn - I wish Pocock was an All Black just for one Test series now I'm thinking about it.

Yeah, the first bit is exactly what I thought.
The second bit -

 

[Saxter]

I fixed up your typo's fitzy..
-----------------------------------

1 Slipper (c)
2 Moore - TPN
3 Kepu
4 Douglas
5 SimmonsMumm
6 Fardy
7 Pocock
8 Timani
9 Genia
10 Cooper
11 Mitchell
12 Kerevi/Hodge
13 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) Folau
14 DHPAAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15 FolauDHP

16 TPNMoore
17 Sio
18 Ala'alatoa (though I'd like Robertson to have a go, apparently the incumbent did alright)
19 Coleman
20 Timani/McMahon
21 Hooper
22 Phipps
23 Foley

This. Yes this my friend is the team. Hooper can cover a back position if needed. Sadly there is more chance of Cheik being picked up as the 'Face of' Gillette than him playing Izzy at 13. Grrrr....

 

[Saxter]

="

1.Slipper
2.TPN
3.Kepu
4. Coleman
5.Douglas
6.Fardy
7.Hooper - (C)
8.Pocock
9.Genia
10. Foley
11.DHP - trust your inside man FFS
12.Kyle Godwin
13. Kerevi
14.AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15.Folau
res: Hanson, AAAAA, Sio, Mumm, McMahon, Phipps, Quade, Morahan.

Got to go for it now, no use losing with Moore and Simmons again we might as well start building now as it looks like the Bledisloe is gone and it only took 20 mniutes. Drop Kudriani to give him a kick in the arse.

Kyle Godwin? Look I'm sure he's a nice bloke but when he was in form Miley Cyrus was still Hannah Montana.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think you are being kind. In the wallaby 2016 thread I questioned the merits of the French connection (mg, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Dm)and was criticised on the basis that we are better with them in the team and that we should pick the best side available.

I am absolutely unconvinced that we are better with them in the team. Even before his injury, giteau looked slow, old and shit with the boot. I've watched him play for Toulon this year and he looked the same as he looked before - he runs across the paddock and backs himself against bigger faster players with predictable consequences. When was the last time AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) did anything notable in gold? TK was an absolute rock in defence - as usual - yet because he didn't bust their line open half the board thinks he ought to be dropped. Ashley-cooper's defence has been steadily detoriating over years which is fair enough as he has lots of miles on the clock and is pushing his mid 30s. If Mitchell is such a fucking stud that makes our side better, why wasn't he in the 23? Did we bring him back so giteau doesn't get lonely or something?

Genia is a bit different because he is young enough that it's conceivable we might be able to use him if he starts performing well, but nevertheless I agree with you that it's either the NH or gold, not both.

I tend to agree. I was only leaving judgement of ability out of the equation as it would sidetrack the real issue, being the long term damage done by the practice.

 

[Quick Hands]

Plus he doesn't have the smarts to be captain.

Hmm, but we are comparing him to Moore.

 

[Saxter]

Yeah, I'm trying not to be to gloaty. I think it will be a loss, but possibly not another thrashing.
Like many kiwis, I was reasonably confident of a good win, but not 100%. Now and then, Australia can pull out a good game and knock over the ABs.

Its really hard to predict what will happen. I don't think they will be beaten so badly this week.

But shit, the ABs will never be weaker as they will next weekend. Forget Crotty and Fekitoa, that was never going to be as weak as some posters here thought. Fekitoa is a Highlander FFS, not exactly a team where a turnstile on defence keeps his position. But Crotty has a potential concussion, so could be in doubt. Naholo is out. We could well see a new cap at 12 and on the bench as wing cover. Coles played well despite injured ribs and all so I expect Coltman or Ash Dixon to cover hooker.

However I have just read an article with the inspiring headline:
The All Blacks have set themselves to grind Australia into the dust

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...or-sydney-now-have-worries-about-maintaining-

Will be an interesting week in Team Wallaby.

I think the score will depend entirely on the team selected. If it's basically the same team - with the exception of injuries - then I think we're fooked. We really need to bottle some Ardie Savea mongrel and fizz. To be honest knowing you have a bloke on the other side playing with ribs held together with chewing gum there should be a target right on that spot. All within the rules of the game of course. Show intent and mongrel. "Oh you want to play with dodgy ribs Dane?" However the WBs with the exception of Folau and I think Genia (and latterly Phipps actually) were just so lacklustre right from the get-go. Bring that same team and attitude to WGN and it will be a bloodbath. New players (eg Timani, Mcmahon), new attitude and hopefully new result. A result for me will be the effort not the score.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Hard to know what to do after the debacle on the weekend. Looking at the stats (I've not seen the game itself) we have some key areas to sort out: the line out, bending the line and defence. Who could we reasonably bring in to improve those areas? Fardy should come back in to provide the third lineout option (plus he's good in contact), I think it might be time for Timani to get a run at eight and maybe Kerevi to play at 12. Dare I also say Cooper at 10? The really tough call for me is with the captain. Maybe Squeak isn't the guy going forward and Cheik might have to hook him. Pocock could lead the side if that were to happen.