Brumbies 2017
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Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
How could you judge? Was he as shite or more shite than the rest of the backline? That is the point about backs in a Foley coached team, you could have the ABs backline there are they'd look like headless chooks unsuited to club footy.
RoffsChoice
Jim Lenehan (48)
I think that, assuming no injuries, our options at 12 are Coleman, Dargaville, Jackson-Hope, and Lilo (I'm mentioning him because he can, but ruling him out immediately).
Both Coleman and Dargaville are like another Mark Bartholomeusz for us in terms of cover, but they're wingers who happen to be capable in other positions. Jackson-Hope is a 12, through and through. The question is whether we want the playmaking wingers at 12, or a 12.
To be clear, I'd prefer Coleman, but if you're in the Jackson-Hope camp, you have to ask yourself if you think it's worth bringing in a guy like Godwin when we already have a player with good potential in that position.
As an aside on Lilo, I think his best position is 12, but it would be mad to move him from 10 when our backup is Jooste. Then again, I'm one of the madmen who thinks Hunt should be fullback for Australia, with Folau on the wing, so I like crazy ideas sometimes. Maybe give Isaac Thompson a jersey at 10 and let Lilo return to parter Kuridrani.
Both Coleman and Dargaville are like another Mark Bartholomeusz for us in terms of cover, but they're wingers who happen to be capable in other positions. Jackson-Hope is a 12, through and through. The question is whether we want the playmaking wingers at 12, or a 12.
To be clear, I'd prefer Coleman, but if you're in the Jackson-Hope camp, you have to ask yourself if you think it's worth bringing in a guy like Godwin when we already have a player with good potential in that position.
As an aside on Lilo, I think his best position is 12, but it would be mad to move him from 10 when our backup is Jooste. Then again, I'm one of the madmen who thinks Hunt should be fullback for Australia, with Folau on the wing, so I like crazy ideas sometimes. Maybe give Isaac Thompson a jersey at 10 and let Lilo return to parter Kuridrani.
louie
Desmond Connor (43)
he was the worst player on the field. Single handedly turned over the ball at least 5 times with bad carries, bad passes and knock ons.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
I do agree with some of the ideas put forward by MST, but think he has picked some inappropriate examples to illustrate his cause. Like Slim, I'm pretty sure Ah Wong hasn't played 12 for the Vikings/Brumbies, and Dargaville has been no more than an emergency fill-in there. I also think it's time that Bernie got over his loyalty to Robbie Coleman. Robbie is as game as they come, but he struggles at Super Rugby level imo.
So, the cover at 12 is looking very sparse atm. One of the problems the Brumbies have had in recent years imo has been the reliance on Christian/Matty to fill both 10 and 12 spots and the inclination to view each as cover for the other. That has left us one good Super Rugby player short in the inside backs I believe. The reason that we've had to go with Coleman and Dargaville at times. If Andrew Smith was brought back to help cover 12, when in reality he is a 13, then that didn't eventuate either due to his long injury layoff.
MST's point then that we don't seem to be recruiting Super Rugby level players but are relying on young, promising players is probably valid. Having said that, though, I can see a lot of upside in the signings of Jooste and Jackson-Hope. I believe we will see them get a fair bit of playing time in 2017.
It remains to be seen if Godwin can recapture his strong form of a couple of years ago, whether that be for the Force, Brumbies or Reds who I think might also be interested. There is reason to believe he would go better in a side with better standard players around him, but he would also need to adapt his game from a very one-dimensional hit it up style that he plays atm.
Looking forward, I think the Brumbies will have the players in 2017 to make their mark on the competition again, but I'd like to see some changes in the playing structures to encourage the backs to threaten the line a bit more, and to keep the ball in hand more than they do so atm.
The forwards are looking to be very strong for the foreseeable future.
So, the cover at 12 is looking very sparse atm. One of the problems the Brumbies have had in recent years imo has been the reliance on Christian/Matty to fill both 10 and 12 spots and the inclination to view each as cover for the other. That has left us one good Super Rugby player short in the inside backs I believe. The reason that we've had to go with Coleman and Dargaville at times. If Andrew Smith was brought back to help cover 12, when in reality he is a 13, then that didn't eventuate either due to his long injury layoff.
MST's point then that we don't seem to be recruiting Super Rugby level players but are relying on young, promising players is probably valid. Having said that, though, I can see a lot of upside in the signings of Jooste and Jackson-Hope. I believe we will see them get a fair bit of playing time in 2017.
It remains to be seen if Godwin can recapture his strong form of a couple of years ago, whether that be for the Force, Brumbies or Reds who I think might also be interested. There is reason to believe he would go better in a side with better standard players around him, but he would also need to adapt his game from a very one-dimensional hit it up style that he plays atm.
Looking forward, I think the Brumbies will have the players in 2017 to make their mark on the competition again, but I'd like to see some changes in the playing structures to encourage the backs to threaten the line a bit more, and to keep the ball in hand more than they do so atm.
The forwards are looking to be very strong for the foreseeable future.
mst
Peter Johnson (47)
I am happy to be corrected if I have provided poor examples, my point was more about where they are being played rather than listed.
The comments above do go some way to highlight my point that we have have a lot of utility backs, especially at for the 13 and winger roles, but we are still very light on in the specialist 10, 12 to a degree, and 15. I personally can see JJH working at 12, with Dargaville and co as alternate options, but 10 could be an issue with Jooste yet to show much in part due to his injury run of late, which is another concern, and with Christian going to Japan maybe we should be half expecting the usual injury curse.
15 is a real and urgent issue IMHO. As for kicking if Christian goes down, its either Jooste or we may see Mann-Rae getting extended game time as he can kick.
It is time that the Brumbies started to use their next gen and move in to a new era. In the past the next gen were signed to bolster the roster behind experienced incumbents but now they are the best options we have as players depart. In the past we have had the luxury of blooding player slowly and making them compete for spots but that is passing to a degree as they have levelled out performance wise (EG: the locks all now bring something without any drawbacks and the newer stocks like Powell adds new elements).
Its been interesting to watch Burnies player management change both in game and off field and its still evolving. The way he has used the beach over the past two seasons has been like chalk and cheese, reluctant to use the beach for the first half of last year, now he has learned the merits and benefits of using it. It also goes to giving some players like JJH and Staniforth a shot, and other being rotated in like Makin and Abel.
We have learned that recruiting players like a Toua can be problematic. He was suspect at Super Rugby level for the Reds, and we now see that hasn't really changed.
To a degree I get the signing of Saia, but IMHO its just tying up a spot for an up and coming Hooker, especially being a 1 year deal. It could mean that come 2018, we may lose both Saia and I am not sure where Mann-Rae will be placed - I think he will be fine but he will be getting towards more of a bench option. So its lost development time.
What does Godwin bring apart from recent poor form and bad habits? An honest assessment will say he has potential but its a wait and see and will take a season or so. Can he be re-coached, find form and will he fit in? With his injury history will he be like Andrew Smith has been for us this year?
On the coaching side of things the same questions and approximate time frames you would have with a rookie apply equally to bringing in "üsed" players, except its easier to mould a rookie rather than change ingrained habits etc, and up skill them when they haven't been able to develop the skills after many years. (EG: recent discussions about Toua's abilities or lack of them.)
We need to take a leaf out of the Kiwi book and give players a shot and develop more. If they don't make it or are not good enough, or a better option appears, then we need to make the hard decisions. Kane Hames is the perfect example; after 20 caps in a Super Rugby title winning side last year he was cut.
Watching the Rebels game last night, I can help but wonder how a Mike Harris would go at 15 for us; solid, good kicking in hand and place, good running and option taking, reliable and ok in defence. Also he is really good cover. I also like the K. Hunt at 15 suggestion.
The comments above do go some way to highlight my point that we have have a lot of utility backs, especially at for the 13 and winger roles, but we are still very light on in the specialist 10, 12 to a degree, and 15. I personally can see JJH working at 12, with Dargaville and co as alternate options, but 10 could be an issue with Jooste yet to show much in part due to his injury run of late, which is another concern, and with Christian going to Japan maybe we should be half expecting the usual injury curse.
15 is a real and urgent issue IMHO. As for kicking if Christian goes down, its either Jooste or we may see Mann-Rae getting extended game time as he can kick.
It is time that the Brumbies started to use their next gen and move in to a new era. In the past the next gen were signed to bolster the roster behind experienced incumbents but now they are the best options we have as players depart. In the past we have had the luxury of blooding player slowly and making them compete for spots but that is passing to a degree as they have levelled out performance wise (EG: the locks all now bring something without any drawbacks and the newer stocks like Powell adds new elements).
Its been interesting to watch Burnies player management change both in game and off field and its still evolving. The way he has used the beach over the past two seasons has been like chalk and cheese, reluctant to use the beach for the first half of last year, now he has learned the merits and benefits of using it. It also goes to giving some players like JJH and Staniforth a shot, and other being rotated in like Makin and Abel.
We have learned that recruiting players like a Toua can be problematic. He was suspect at Super Rugby level for the Reds, and we now see that hasn't really changed.
To a degree I get the signing of Saia, but IMHO its just tying up a spot for an up and coming Hooker, especially being a 1 year deal. It could mean that come 2018, we may lose both Saia and I am not sure where Mann-Rae will be placed - I think he will be fine but he will be getting towards more of a bench option. So its lost development time.
What does Godwin bring apart from recent poor form and bad habits? An honest assessment will say he has potential but its a wait and see and will take a season or so. Can he be re-coached, find form and will he fit in? With his injury history will he be like Andrew Smith has been for us this year?
On the coaching side of things the same questions and approximate time frames you would have with a rookie apply equally to bringing in "üsed" players, except its easier to mould a rookie rather than change ingrained habits etc, and up skill them when they haven't been able to develop the skills after many years. (EG: recent discussions about Toua's abilities or lack of them.)
We need to take a leaf out of the Kiwi book and give players a shot and develop more. If they don't make it or are not good enough, or a better option appears, then we need to make the hard decisions. Kane Hames is the perfect example; after 20 caps in a Super Rugby title winning side last year he was cut.
Watching the Rebels game last night, I can help but wonder how a Mike Harris would go at 15 for us; solid, good kicking in hand and place, good running and option taking, reliable and ok in defence. Also he is really good cover. I also like the K. Hunt at 15 suggestion.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
Some players will improve if they are persisted with. Remember that Latho was pretty ordinary for a year or so when he started with the Reds. But he developed to become one of our best Wallaby No 15s ever. Maybe hope yet for Toua.
Forcefield
Ken Catchpole (46)
That descrption of Mike Harris sounds an awful lot like Julian Huxley.
mst
Peter Johnson (47)
Tomikin
Simon Poidevin (60)
Im hoping Toua continues the form of last game and starts an upward increase .. His really never really had a sustained period of rugby too improve.
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USARugger
John Thornett (49)
We can only hope!
The big difference is that Latham was never battling against time like Aidan has been.
Aidan is 26 and still looks like a raw Super Rugby player. Mostly because in terms of game time, up until this season, he was. A lot of the issues with Aidan's play start with the "top two inches" - and I think most of that is down to game time and exposure to the pressure you're under when making decisions in a Super Rugby match. He's still a phenomenal athlete and it doesn't look like his injuries have slowed him down nearly as much as they would have many other players.
Latham was already playing in the majority of 'Tahs games during his rookie season and then would average close to 10 caps a year for the Reds over the next decade. Aidan averaged ~3.3 caps/yr for the Reds.
In 6 years of professional Rugby, Aidan has had one full season (last year, for Agen).
I hope nothing but the best for the guy but I doubt we'll ever see him at his full potential due to a lack of game time over these developmental years and the refined decision-making/timing that comes with it.
It'd make me happy to see him come good. He's absolutely electric and a joy to watch when on form.
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