How to fix the wallabies

[dru]

Is this all really on point with regards to "How to Fix The Wallabies"? As edifying as it is. Are we getting a bit sidetracked?

Yes absolutely, and for my part Cyclo I apologise.

Its just that this shite is cross threading everywhere including the WBs next game and sooner or later I was going to bite.

I've had a gutful of the boorish reiteration. (Nothing I have said tonight has not been stated earlier on the ARU-participation thread.) I have made several comments similar to yours, before responding.

I now cease and desist.

 

[Pfitzy]

Is this all really on point with regards to "How to Fix The Wallabies"? As edifying as it is. Are we getting a bit sidetracked?

Nup. And its not the first sidetrack.

One move that needs serious consideration is reformation of the schools programs.

It is a strength in terms of developing talent but GPS sits atop the pile in a tiny little pool full of big fish. Meanwhile the other pools barely get to see each other, much less compete.

And I don't give a flying rodent's hindquarters if it serves up three years of thrashings - none of those other schools are going to get better at playing, coaching, or management if they don't get exposed one way or another.

It is no stretch to assume 7s is now going to hold top billing for introduction at primary school level, because Olympics. Its easier to understand, quicker to set up, and less defined in its skill set.

7s can be our pathway across ALL primary schools, hammering home the point about Olympics. That should continue into junior high school when we start introducing 10s and then full XVs at U15/16 level.

Issue: running 7s in junior school makes everyone want to be a back.

Need to overcome this. For the love of all that is holy in the game...


Side note: my old high school in the middle of fucking nowhere with < 200 students features one of the better womens' rugby programs for 7s going. Feature in top 4 of both U16 and U18, and this from a school buried in a league heartland!

We also need to seriously rethink the junior restrictions we place on our schools in terms of scrummaging, and ensure that our second rowers can all run a lineout. Locks are not the brightest at the best of times, but being able to jump and yell out more than two syllables isn't beyond them. The ones who can run fast are blindside flankers.

Clearly we don't lack for talent for openside, but I weep at the lack of genuine 8th men in our rugby provinces.

Backs we should be sorted. How hard can it be?

 

[cyclopath]

No problem, folks. Just trying to keep things on track - in this thread and others.
Grassroots is obviously relevant to fixing the Wallabies, to a point, but there are specific threads for grassroots talk, is all I was saying. As dru says, pages of reiteration aren't necessary.

 

[Quick Hands]

Lets go again.

http://www.nswrugby.com.au/Portals/35/NSWRugby/NSW Rugby-web.pdf?timestamp=1430699963641

This time p35. Again circa $730k to SS compared to $800k o community rugby. I take "community" to roughly equate "grass roots" in this arrangement. So roughly same-same funding to Papworth and his cronies. (Guess what, the NSWRU has to fund other comps too).

From recollection some 2,500 players in those SS clubs? (I'll bet those SS clubs get community funding for the age groups where they have them.) and from recollection some 7,500 players across the rest of Sydney?

So roughly 3:1 funding to SS on $/player basis than the grass roots players. Hoes that make you feel? You grass roots blokes, wondering where you playing fees are going? Happy to be funding The Premier Comp?

But HELL, lets just rant at the ARU and threaten to tear the joint down.

Every time that Papworth issues a presser, rugby futures in aus go down a couple of points.

You seem to be the one having the rant. I was merely attempting to have a rational conversation with you.

And I am involved in grass roots rugby in NSW - for the same junior club for over 40 years in fact. We're part of a SS club which takes junior development very seriously and actively supports it's junior clubs and rugby more generally. We work with the Manly District club and the NSWRU to try to do our bit to fix the Wallabies.

I don't know exactly what the $730,000 goes towards and neither to you - you're relying on one line in a financial statement which could mean many, many things.

How do I feel? More than a little annoyed that some people will take any opportunity to slag off at SS clubs. And by the way, "SS clubs" are not a monolithic organisation - they are 12 different clubs, each run independently, some do things better than others, some do things differently, some have embraced the NRC differently to others - so again, to use the term "SS clubs" as a catch all descriptor is disengenuous to say the least.

 

[thepuma]

Lindommer,

You might as well save your breath. Club rugby in Sydney has always been about self-interest.


Even back in the days when you had to represent the club for which you were residentially qualified. As a kid growing up in the Eastwood district in the days when we could not win anything, and lost players galore to Gordon and Parramatta -- who were both far more successful, that was just the way it was. It took us just on 50 years to win our first First Grade Premiership, and 14 years to win anything (Thirsty Thirds in 1962).

I don't recall anybody calling for us to get help. And that is the way community sport works. Parramatta used to be bloody strong, when they had a strong rugby community. Penrith had a pretty handy side too at one stage.


(On the residential front, I met a chap in Tonga who had played first grade with Gordon, partnering Trevor Allen in the centres. He told me that he had actually been residentially qualified to play for Eastwood, but had been assisted to get a fake Gordon address).

Not to mention the player payments and other inducements that certain successful clubs were notorious for back in the shamateur days.


Self-interest is the only reliable motivator in amateur sport, and that is what club rugby is, virtually.

I would love to see the Penrith rugby community support their club. Why don't they? That is the question that should be being asked, and answered.


By the way, nobody was more delighted than me when we lost both games against Parramatta this year, even if it meant that we had to face the Corporation at their home ground in the semis.

what support do you want to see?

 

[thepuma]

The biggest failure of some Shute Shield clubs, and I'll call it a failure, is to consider their existence and success more important than the overall health of Australian rugby. To want to continue belting other clubs after raping their player lists just for their petty self-aggrandisement is almost immoral. For Papworth and others of his ilk to beat their chests and claim the Shute Shield clubs can contribute to a successful Wallaby side as they did in his day is laughable.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link: the entire rugby community in Sydney should be utterly committed to the development and progress of the game in Sydney's west. To see Penrith and Parramatta continue to struggle year after year is shameful. I don't have the time or inclination to draw up a list of players from these two clubs' regions who've been poached by the more established cubs but it'd be damning.

...and the number of western Sydney locals lured to turn up on a Sunday without training to the northern and eastern clubs is laughable who wouldn't even be counted in those figures. Penrith District has two of the 7 teams in the 15 A comp and there's another 1 to 2 team's worth playing for the other 5 teams.

 

[wamberal]

what support do you want to see?

Local support from the local rugby community.

 

[thepuma]

Local support from the local rugby community.

Theres a lot of engagement that needs to happen which can only realistically be lead by someone in a full time role. As long as community rugby is run on an oily rag its an uphill battle!

 

[BarneySF]

Would it be fair to say that this year saw one of the first serious in-bound test series in some time?

IIRC historically, the home/Euro nations would tend to send ‘B’ teams (France most recently) who would generally get roundly-whipped with the explanation being “it was the end of a long season” and with those teams’ stars being rested. “Fresh team vs Tired team”.


Now with the England series, we had a full-strength touring party who were on a roll and had momentum, in no small part because of a regime change which seems to often bring good results (like it did for the Wallabies with MC) and it became “Well-oiled team v Rusty team”. Interestingly, although we'd never take the grand slam, the situation would be reversed more often than not on the EOYT.

 

[dru]

Theres a lot of engagement that needs to happen which can only realistically be lead by someone in a full time role. As long as community rugby is run on an oily rag its an uphill battle!

I'm focussing on NSW as it seems to be the heart of the discontent. From the 2013, 14 & 15 (released only Mar 2016) Annual Reports:

Community Spend:
2013: $860,511
2014: $798,744
2015: $3,358,211

I'd imagine the jump in 2015 would be the introductio of the player levy? At any rate, it's hard to justify the claim that it runs on the smell of an oily rag. We also see a suggestion that the NSWRU is seeing the problem and reacting. Too late? Perhaps, but claims that they are not reacting appear to be in error.

Out of interest, elements of the income follow. In my mind, the license fee from Waratahs Ltd is part of the joint achievement of ARU and NSWRU in operation of the professional game in NSW.

(Part of) Income:
2013: Premier Match fees $168,804; ARU: $150,000; Waratahs: $1,158,194
2014: Premier match fees $160,245; ARU: $480,000; Waratahs: $1,537,367
2015: Premier match fees $152,505; ARU: $1,309,524; Waratahs: $1,143,582

 

[dru]

Some observations. A (commercially) successful professional franchise is paramount to the ability to fund community rugby. The ARU has been funding throughout, with the input of further funding by NSWRU, it has never been true (well, for the years covered anyway) that community funding for rugby has been ignored. Both the NSWRU and the ARU have definitively stepped up in this regard.

Community rugby is obviously seen as a priority.

I have previously looked at the distortion ($/player) in funding between Community rugby and Premier. This still exists, but take into account the gate receipts as "self contribution" the distortion no where need as bad as I had imagined. I thought it was as high as 4:1 where it is actually something between 2:1 and 3:1. I suspect a case could be made to support this level. I wouldnt make it, but I suspect someone could.

The player levy isa massive assist to community rugby.

 

[wamberal]

According to an article in yesterday's Sydney Morning Herald, a lot of PIs who would prefer to play our game are playing loig in Western Sydney instead because of match payments of as little as $50 a game.

 

[Pfitzy]

Totally unsurprising wamberal - though the risks are much higher due to the impact in league.

We've seen where money and Subbies leads...

 

[dru]

There is also very little Premier opportunities in the PI communities. Parramatta is about it, and that is roughly geographically and population wise the mid point of Sydney. West goes from there.

Circumstances are quite different, but think about the PI community gathered in Brisbane via the Premier club Sunnybank. What is the equivalent here in Sydney? About the only thing is a PI player scorning the $50 game payment and looking for an opportunity swapping east to the SS. Which might cost $50 a week in travel.

It is not an ideal situation.

 

[barbarian]

For those who don't agree that club rugby is about self-interest, try this little hypothetical.

You are the president of a pretty successful club. One of your members is rich. He comes to you one day and says: "Gidday mate. I have decided that I want to put a bit of money into the game at the grass-roots. I am willing to put in $100k each year for the next five years".

You say:

1. Thanks Kevin. We can really use it.

2. No thanks Kevin. Give half each to Parramatta and Penrith. They are the ones who really need it.

I don't think you've got the right hypothetical, Wam, although you are close. Kevin comes along with his 100k. As the Club President, you're not turning down the money. The real question is, how are you using it?

Do you say:

1. You beauty, thanks Kev. We can beef up our first grade with this cash. Let's look to bring in a gun 10 from the NPC, and a few good youngsters from out west. And with what's left we can buy a new bench press and maybe a set of goalpost pads. Or.......

2. This money will give our junior program the shot in the arm it needs. Let's advertise, run holiday camps, reduce playing fees, and get our name out into local schools. Let's train some more coaches and refs too!

THAT is the question I'd like to see Papworth answer. My suspicion is that for too long #1 has been the first option for SS teams, rather than #2.

And while the ARU has sins to answer for, Papworth's rants neglect the fact that they are last people who should be throwing stones.
.

 

[I like to watch]

If there was a Kevin, he'd want to see his $100k, kicking ass on Saturday as he bathed in the reflected glory.
That's how the world works.

if Kevin had any interest in seeing the cash going to kiddies, he would give it directly to a village club.

why is Papworth as a part time volunteer of a senior district club, more responsible for the development of juniors,than the CEO of the ruling body, that actually places a levy on the participation of these juniors?

 

[barbarian]

If there was a Kevin, he'd want to see his $100k, kicking ass on Saturday as he bathed in the reflected glory.
That's how the world works.

if Kevin had any interest in seeing the cash going to kiddies, he would give it directly to a village club.

why is Papworth as a part time volunteer of a senior district club, more responsible for the development of juniors,than the CEO of the ruling body, that actually places a levy on the participation of these juniors?

I'd suggest the ruling body is just as responsible for the development of juniors, and the levy issue is a complete red herring. Papworth puts a levy on these juniors as well, for the same broad reasons as the ARU - general functioning of the code.
.

 

[I like to watch]

Why is the ruling body of this sport,less responsible for the development of the game than its competitors?
How much does an Eastwood affiliated junior pay in rego fees? and how much of this, is an Eastwood district club levy?

 

[barbarian]

Why is the ruling body of this sport,less responsible for the development of the game than its competitors?
How much does an Eastwood affiliated junior pay in rego fees? and how much of this, is an Eastwood district club levy?

a) it's not.
b) I don't know.

 

[No4918]

If there was a Kevin, he'd want to see his $100k, kicking ass on Saturday as he bathed in the reflected glory.
That's how the world works.

if Kevin had any interest in seeing the cash going to kiddies, he would give it directly to a village club.

why is Papworth as a part time volunteer of a senior district club, more responsible for the development of juniors,than the CEO of the ruling body, that actually places a levy on the participation of these juniors?

Not necessarily. If I was Kevin I wouldn't be looking to bask in the 'glory'. But YMMV.