How to fix the wallabies

[half]

You haven't been alone, but we're certainly in the minority.

If for example the junior club rugby system from the 1970s was intact and newer areas had been added as Sydney expanded, the Wallabies wouldn't need fixing. We'd have a strong vibrant club based junior development system slightly smaller than other codes, but big enough to get our share of the junior talent, big enough to have a player base of the right size and thus big enough to fill subbies, SS clubs, NRC clubs, super clubs and the Wallabies with good players.

Could not agree more and even through we all understand this to be true, because its been seen as not effecting the top of the pole for a while its been largely ignored or more put off for another day.

The park teams, provide the following for all codes,

Fields to play on and people just see your game.

Players

The players are interesting to analysis as they go through various stages with some dropping out and some going on to play test.

Let me just share what players do and its a reasonable constant across sport.

For every 100 players that start at say 8 years old

Some will drop out,
Some will play to their teens
Some will play to mid 20
Some will have a life time of playing
86% of players who play more than a certain amount over their youth become TV watchers and some attend games.
Some become coaches
Some become volunteers
Some fight for better community resources.

The obvious is our volunteers by comparison are ageing, we have not pushed into the new high youth population areas and let our existing clubs run down.

Have always said this is Rugby's biggest issue

 

[Scrubber2050]

and some pf us become posters on GAGR

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

No one said anything about dismantling anything. School sport (including rugby) still goes on in the private system regardless of what happens in club land. For example the GPS schools in Melbourne (where they call themselves APS) all play Aussie Rules against each other in the same way that the Sydney schools play rugby. It's not an either/or proposition. But the club system is the main one. Soccer has as big a competition in the Sydney GPS as does rugby, but it's not the main player development ara either - that occurs in club land.



This already occurs. The 8 state sports high schools played off to be the CHS representative in the Waratah Shield.

The biggest problem with having the school systems are our main place of player development is that the schools play the sports which reflect their demographic. Even in the GPS schools, rugby is on the decline because an increasing number of students aren't interested in playing and/or come from a background where rugby isn't played. So at High, Grammar, Newington and Kings there are now more soccer players than rugby players. Some of the GPS schools have introduced/are introducing AFL. Same story in the CAS system.

The Waratah Shield has colapsed as a structure. This year they only just managed to get 4 teams involved. It's discussed over on the schoolboy's section. Additionally, the Waratahs Shield is a knockout competition. They are completely useless as far as I'm concerned as primary development drivers. As supplementary competitions to regular structured play they are okay but not the sole involvement.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Drop the barriers between schools rugby. Let everyone have a look at how its done. A longer school season wouldn't be a bad idea as a result, with more interconnection.

Sure, teams are going to get thrashed going up against the top GPS sides, but they're not going to learn otherwise. The GPS might even learn a few things once they're not just the big fish in a very small pool.

Junior club rugby is so fragmented that it can no longer exist, except in pockets. Promoting 7s via Primary Schools, and then XVs in late high school (after maybe 10s in between) can produce a sound pathway.

Its nothing to do with ARU governance over GPS either. Its about everyone coming together to improve Australian rugby, not their little inbred patch of it.

I honestly cannot see the likes of GPS or CAS ever moving away from their own internal competitive structures.

What Rugby needs in this country is a complete rebuild from the bottom up. I'm not talking about dismantling anything either. But using a similar approach to the one you use. Starting in the primary schools sector with Viva 7s and 7s, transitioning to 10s (while maintaining a 7s season) and then onto the 15 man game. It's the only way to expand the base both in school participants and clubs. Only whe there is the demand for more school Rug y competitions will the likes of the established Private Competition even entertaining look externally.

 

[wamberal]

How much money will this "complete rebuild" cost?


Let's put together a budget, just for fun?


How many development officers? A thousand? How much would they cost (including overheads?) Say, $100k each?


$10 mill a year. How many years? Ten?


A mere $100 million.

 

[half]

WRC

Not wanting to be provocative or try and be sensualist however to compare or even consider what we do at school level to other codes is foolish we are pathetic at it.

What gets my goat is I have been bagging on about how league simply takes many of our reps and more recently so does the AFL.

Soccer has for maybe 40 years now been buildings Australia's largest school competition for both girls and boys, with over 400 schools and I think over 6, 000 boys and I don't know how many girls take part but its in the thousands.

When soccer goes FTA, and they get cross promotion, and far better media coverage this like the link below will be very important.

I have put this link on here a couple of time before. Before anyone thinks the writer of the SMH article was wrong should just scan the loaded page.

http://www.billturnersoccer.com.au

Just for the record these are the final 64 teams i.e 32 girls and 32 boys.

The top 32 in the 2016 Bill Turner Trophy (Girls):
Cairns, St Margaret Mary’s Townsville, Mackay, Chancellor, St Ursula’s Toowoomba, Kelvin Grove, Cavendish Road, Palm Beach Currumbin, Trinity College Lismore, Wollumbin, McAuley Catholic Grafton, St Josephs Port Macquarie, Guyra Central, Hunter Valley Grammar, Hunter Sports, International Football, St Josephs East Gosford, Endeavour, PLC Pymble, Muirfield, Hills, Mamre Anglican, Westfields, Bossley Park, Moruya, Overnewton College Keilor, Xavier Albury, Marian College Griffith, Red Bend College, Mudgee, St Marys Star of the Sea, and Holy Spirit Bellambi.
The top 32 in the 2016 Bill Turner Cup (opens): (Boys)
John Fawkner College, Marian College Griffith, Orange, Karabar, Illawarra Grammar, Edmund Rice, Pacific Hills Christian, Knox Grammar, Westfields, Hills, Quakers Hill, Reddam House, Caringbah, Trinity Grammar, Bossley Park, St Edwards Gosford, ASC St Peters Maitland, Belmont, St Philips Waratah, Mackillop Catholic Port Macquarie, Bishop Druitt College Coffs Harbour, Trinity College Lismore, Carinya Christian Tamworth, St Michael’s Carrara, St Joseph’s Gregory Terrace, Cavendish Road, St Mary’s Toowoomba, Kawana Waters, Rockhampton, Emmaus College, Ignatius Park, and Cairns.

 

[Scrubber2050]

WE obviously cannot afford to spread our game across the obvious areas of state schools.

The "system" as we have it has worked OK for 100 years. That is, mainly the private school arena. (Dom't get me wrong I would love to be able to cast the net wide like in NZ)

WE should just have very good talent identifiers POACH talented league kids after they have been "developed" by the Mungos/

Seems a more cost effective process.

 

[half]

WE obviously cannot afford to spread our game across the obvious areas of state schools.

The "system" as we have it has worked OK for 100 years. That is, mainly the private school arena. (Dom't get me wrong I would love to be able to cast the net wide like in NZ)

WE should just have very good talent identifiers POACH talented league kids after they have been "developed" by the Mungos/

Seems a more cost effective process.

Cough cough cough. Sorry its not the system we have had for 100 years. In the 50's and well into the 60's Rugby was the main winter code in NSW state schools. Further in Sydney they rugby had equal if not more SS teams than league had ARL teams, further we had a large local park competition, additionally often the combined state school side would beat the combined private school side.

The current system by my guess has happen as we moved the game closer to George Street.

For the love of the holy mother I posted the final 32 boys and 32 girls school teams in the soccer school competition, look at the number of private schools included.

Even if the private schools could provide the answer, the changing demographics of the school and with AFL buying their way in and soccer with the Bill Turner stuff its difficult to see rugby holding its existing position.

At some point rugby lost the understanding that the social player, and their connections to the broader community is as important as the tight head prop in the national team.

 

[Aussie D]

I haven't been involved with my old club this year but they had a new committee formed after a number of members decided to pull the pin at the end of 2015 after years of blood, sweat and tears just trying to keep the club afloat. The first thing the new committee did (with division approval) was to drop first and second grades and just enter a senior team in third grade (that was a numbers thing) after being forced to merge with a rival club mid-season and losing a game 150-0. The new committee then got out in public in a bid to boost junior numbers. The result was a huge increase in the number of junior players (the U10s had to close their books in the end due to the influx) and I think one new junior age team was established. They were even able to get the numbers for two U7s. The club has also made strident efforts to change the culture in a bid to improve the reputation of the club.
My point is the club didn't go out to buy instant success, nor spend lots of money trying to attract juniors. It set about to build its profile, went into the local shopping centres on a Saturday morning to sign up players (rather than waiting for players to come to them) and it has put the club on the path to a more sustainable future. If the club continues on this path hopefully they will be able to get back up to first grade and be competitive in a couple of years time. Clubs should not wait for the ARU to do anything as the ARU have enough trouble managing the professional game, it won't take a lot of money just a lot of time, effort and passion.

 

[Aussie D]

At some point rugby lost the understanding that the social player, and their connections to the broader community is as important as the tight head prop in the national team.

That would have roughly been 1996 when the CEO decided that kids dropped out of rugby at about 15 years of age so we didn't really need to worry about getting kids younger than that playing. We needed to focus on getting 15 years old kids to start playing rugby instead.

 

[Pfitzy]

they had a new committee formed after a number of members decided to pull the pin at the end of 2015 after years of blood, sweat and tears just trying to keep the club afloat.

Common story - some clubs implode because the people working their arses off finally get tired of having no-one else pitch in. They walk away, and everyone suddenly gets the shits with it.

 

[half]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Aussie D, great story and you have a nail head post. Its not about the money its more about a collective understanding by all involved about the importance of getting people to play.

Just on the 1996, nay it was well before that. Infighting and lack of direction for years has lead to the point we are, co-operation and working together is the way forward.

A mate says this a fair bit and I post his idea but as time goes by I am thinking he may be onto something. In RL Sydney clubs and the local club competition became so powerful especially with the Pokie money they could force their will onto the Queensland RL, ACT RL and even the ARL. Resulting in RL being managed effectively by a single body as Sydney ruled. AFL the same Melbourne could force the southern states to bend to there will and again a one management team.

In rugby both NSW and QLD kinda have been for years trying to out do each other and neither having the power to force the other to there will.

Then along comes a few years ago the ACT and they start winning, even their private schools start winning some stuff. The guy responsible for it all leaves and the dominate NSW & QLD do all they can to make the ACT stronger by appointing the new boss from that rugby heartland of the Northern Territory.

The infighting between the state unions over the years has not helped well thats the opinion of my mate anyway.

 

[half]

How much money will this "complete rebuild" cost?


Let's put together a budget, just for fun?


How many development officers? A thousand? How much would they cost (including overheads?) Say, $100k each?


$10 mill a year. How many years? Ten?


A mere $100 million.

There is no cost or little cost if its done right. Its leadership to get people into the streets and leadership to do simple little things that cost little i.e. have match open days at Eastwood for local school kids, just come accompanied by a parent.

Thats my big issue with Pap.

I actually think Pap has in many ways said the right thing. However I think all levels of rugby are responsible for developing rugby.

 

[I like to watch]

Kids don't pay to watch SS at any oval,with or without adults.

 

[Quick Hands]

The Waratah Shield has colapsed as a structure. This year they only just managed to get 4 teams involved. It's discussed over on the schoolboy's section. Additionally, the Waratahs Shield is a knockout competition. They are completely useless as far as I'm concerned as primary development drivers. As supplementary competitions to regular structured play they are okay but not the sole involvement.

You've missed the point - you were advocating that the 8 sports highs play a competition against each other. I was pointing out to you that they already do. They all played each other and the top school in that competition(Hills Sports) went into the Waratah Shield as the CHS representative. The fact that the Waratah Shield has collapsed is a separate (although related issue).

The state sports highs don't play in regular CHS zone sports these days for obvious reasons. They play all their Wednesday competitive sports against each other.

 

[Quick Hands]

Cough cough cough. Sorry its not the system we have had for 100 years. In the 50's and well into the 60's Rugby was the main winter code in NSW state schools.

Australian Schools Squad 1980.

11 from State CHS schools
11 from the private systems
1 from Sydney BHS which is a state school playing in GPS

Rick Allen Ku-ring-gai High School NSW
Darren Anderson The Southport School QLD
Wally Barnier Shore School NSW
Paul Bowman Waverley College NSW
Greg Burrow Shore School NSW
Ian Donaldson Pennant Hills High School NSW
Robert Featherston Sydney Boys High School NSW
Damien Frawley Gregory Terrace QLD
Stephen Halliwell Northmead High School NSW
Andrew James James Ruse Agric High School NSW
Andrew Jones Chatswood High NSW
Grant Killen Maroubra Bay High NSW
David Knox Matraville High School NSW
Tom Lawton The Southport School QLD
Cameron Lillicrap Brisbane Grammar School QLD
Matthew Lindley Canberra College (Phillip College/Stirling College) ACT Geoff Manteit Gregory Terrace QLD
Darren McCarthy Marist College, Ashgrove QLD
Michael Murray St Joseph's College, Hunters Hill NSW
Brett Papworth Epping Boys High School NSW ***
Ken Smith Matraville High School NSW
Steve Tuynman Hunters Hill High School NSW

Now, while I don't agree with everything that Brett Papworth says, he does have street cred.

EDIT: And how many of those state schools do you reckon still play rugby?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

How much money will this "complete rebuild" cost?


Let's put together a budget, just for fun?


How many development officers? A thousand? How much would they cost (including overheads?) Say, $100k each?


$10 mill a year. How many years? Ten?


A mere $100 million.

Well, the ARU has announced a $10m annual allocation for development reasons. So if it remained that over a 10 year period. That would be the $100m you highlighted.

There are ways of doing it that won't necessary require ridiculous spends. I've had a look over the QRU's junior 7s competition format and it would be a great relatively inexpensive template in which to use nationally to start. Reg actually posted an example on its effectiveness. He has a son at a school in Brisbane that only has 120 odd boys playing Rugby. With the BJRU 7s competition they now have 250 kids signed up ready to play. I'd imagine the spend on getting the word out would have be minimal.

The ARU already has the Viva 7s program developed. The base pieces are there, they just need to be organised into a coherent plan that takes kids from point A being junior primary students with Viva 7s to B in senior primary being full contact 7s, C year 7/8 10s, D year 9/10 12s and E senior HS 15s. All in tandem with spring/summer 7s competitions.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

You've missed the point - you were advocating that the 8 sports highs play a competition against each other. I was pointing out to you that they already do. They all played each other and the top school in that competition(Hills Sports) went into the Waratah Shield as the CHS representative. The fact that the Waratah Shield has collapsed is a separate (although related issue).

The state sports highs don't play in regular CHS zone sports these days for obvious reasons. They play all their Wednesday competitive sports against each other.

I just re-read your post and realised I misread it. My mistake. My question is, is that particular competition to qualify a knockout or does it involve teams playing each other at least once in a structured competition?

 

[half]

Just on the school debate we have been having. The issue are essentially twofold, first the public schools in and of theselves are to small to be able to carry rugby into the future. Second as discussed over this forum in different threads is the increasing competition of other sports and a changing student / parent demographic.

No one is suggesting the public schools be lessened in any way, more expanding to other areas and getting footholds is becoming increasing difficult.

Kinda 10 minutes ago "She Who Must be Obeyed" sent me this suggesting she wanted to go or maybe it was an order to go.

The Central Coast Mariners are playing the Wellington Phoenix in a preseason trail match at Knox Grammar. I am also aware that Western Sydney Wanders play some matches at Kings.

Here is the link for the Central coast match. http://www.ccmariners.com.au/articl...ix-at-knox-grammar/1stl1bcu8kegf11pvwiwgjq2vm

I can only imagine what this does to rugby in the school especially when the Knox boys side has made the final 32 in the Bill Turner Cup see above post.

So the status Que is changing anyway.

Kinda makes the whole expand issue a little more urgent if that was possible.

 

[Quick Hands]

I just re-read your post and realised I misread it. My mistake. My question is, is that particular competition to qualify a knockout or does it involve teams playing each other at least once in a structured competition?

AFAIK they play regular competitions against each other - qualifying for the Waratah Shield was incidental, just as St Augustine's qualified by winning ISA.