How to fix the wallabies

[I like to watch]

a) then why they they employ less resources than their competitors?
Why do people like you suggest amateur clubs in this code are responsible for jnr development,when their peers in other codes have no such responsibility?
b) if you have no idea,then on what basis do you claim that Papworth levies juniors?

 

[barbarian]

a) then why they they employ less resources than their competitors?
Why do people like you suggest amateur clubs in this code are responsible for jnr development,when their peers in other codes have no such responsibility?
b) if you have no idea,then on what basis do you claim that Papworth levies juniors?

a) Because they have less money to do so.

Amatuer rugby clubs play a part in development, yes. They are the first point of contact for juniors, so their role is very important. This is the basis of Papworth's argument, and plea for funding.

Why do you suggest amatuer clubs in other codes 'have no such responsibility'? To me it's exactly the same across the board. When a kid starts their career in any code, it's with the local club, not FFA/AFL/Cricket Australia.

Obviously these central bodies play differing roles in how much they are involved in junior clubs. And I accept the ARU may well be the least involved. But again that comes back to $$$.

b) I'm just arguing that every rugby club I have paid for has levied sub fees from players, for the running of the club. I can't see how Eastwood would be any different?
.

 

[I like to watch]

The point has been made may times before.
The NRL contributes many multiples as a percentage to the grassroots,not just in absolute dollar terms.
Which is my fundamental issue with the current ARU administration.

no it's a local JUNIOR club, not the amateur district club above it, where kids have the original contact .
The district club in cricket,and soccer in my area have zero involvement in juniors, In league a little bit.

I'm not sure Papworth made any case that they foster juniors.

Pulver was stupid to make the comment about pissing money up against the wall.
If he was smart,when he announced the cut in SS funding he should have employed 2 f/t DO's with the money, and made a big deal about it.
But the real issue was that he wanted to save the $$

 

[thepuma]

I'm focussing on NSW as it seems to be the heart of the discontent. From the 2013, 14 & 15 (released only Mar 2016) Annual Reports:

Community Spend:
2013: $860,511
2014: $798,744
2015: $3,358,211

I'd imagine the jump in 2015 would be the introductio of the player levy? At any rate, it's hard to justify the claim that it runs on the smell of an oily rag. We also see a suggestion that the NSWRU is seeing the problem and reacting. Too late? Perhaps, but claims that they are not reacting appear to be in error.

Out of interest, elements of the income follow. In my mind, the license fee from Waratahs Ltd is part of the joint achievement of ARU and NSWRU in operation of the professional game in NSW.

(Part of) Income:
2013: Premier Match fees $168,804; ARU: $150,000; Waratahs: $1,158,194
2014: Premier match fees $160,245; ARU: $480,000; Waratahs: $1,537,367
2015: Premier match fees $152,505; ARU: $1,309,524; Waratahs: $1,143,582

I would argue that spend probably correlates with the wages of development officers, their cars, phone bills, office space and accommodation moving them to all parts of NSW for camps carnivals and promotions. Have I seen any great impact of the 'Western Sydney solution' on my club? short answer no, maybe less in fact. Does that qualify for pissing it up against the wall?

 

[dru]

So we need to look at how the spend is being worked. Getting closer I think with these questions.

 

[Muzza]

not sue its its the right thread so steer me in the right direction but why don't the ARU lift the salary cap? might bring in my private investors hopefully more money?

 

[I like to watch]

All the Super teams lose money now.
If they raised the cap,then they would all lose even more money.
How is that more attractive to investors?

 

[Quick Hands]

There is also very little Premier opportunities in the PI communities. Parramatta is about it, and that is roughly geographically and population wise the mid point of Sydney. West goes from there.

Circumstances are quite different, but think about the PI community gathered in Brisbane via the Premier club Sunnybank. What is the equivalent here in Sydney? About the only thing is a PI player scorning the $50 game payment and looking for an opportunity swapping east to the SS. Which might cost $50 a week in travel.

It is not an ideal situation.

Whoa there. Pacific Islanders are and have been a part of Manly rugby for 30 years. To suggest that the only avenue in SS for players of PI descent in completely and utterly wrong. Just in the 2016 1st grade squad alone I count 10 out of 30 and that doesn't include lower grades or colts.

http://www.manlyrugby.com.au/team/meet-the-squad

 

[Quick Hands]

I'd suggest the ruling body is just as responsible for the development of juniors, and the levy issue is a complete red herring. Papworth puts a levy on these juniors as well, for the same broad reasons as the ARU - general functioning of the code.
.

Really? Are you sure about that? Doesn't happen at Manly and I'd be surprised if it happened at Eastwood.

 

[Quick Hands]

a

b) I'm just arguing that every rugby club I have paid for has levied sub fees from players, for the running of the club. I can't see how Eastwood would be any different?
.

You do understand that junior players pay their fees directly to their junior village club (now via the ARU myrugby website). Other the the cut that the ARU takes, the rest goes to the relevant junior club. There is no mechanism for a levy to the district senior club as part of this process. Certainly at Manly, there is no levy using any means from junior village clubs to the Manly RFC (which operates grade and colts rugby).

I realise that you are part of a group who aren't particular supporters of the clubs involved in the SS, but if you are going to make accusations such as these, it would be wise to check if they have any basis in fact first.

 

[dru]

Whoa there. Pacific Islanders are and have been a part of Manly rugby for 30 years. To suggest that the only avenue in SS for players of PI descent in completely and utterly wrong. Just in the 2016 1st grade squad alone I count 10 out of 30 and that doesn't include lower grades or colts.

http://www.manlyrugby.com.au/team/meet-the-squad

quick, I defer to your input.

There is always a problem in polemic positions and it wasnt actually my intent. I still suspect that there is a much greater PI population west of Parramatta. How much of the PI population is in Manly? Great they are being picked up but what about the populations that are being picked up by NRL as there is little other choice.

I love what Manly are doing, but it cant be a one stop shop solution to broadening Rugby to areas of possible strength at the grass roots.

I know the PI population is not just a west shindig. We have a (god I think its Tongan) church here in Balmain. Those guys are pretty cool, though I'm not sure they all live here. Welcome part of our community.

If grass roots investment is to be effective, we need take the ability of places like the Marlins and do it in areas that not "traditional rugby".

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Whoa there. Pacific Islanders are and have been a part of Manly rugby for 30 years. To suggest that the only avenue in SS for players of PI descent in completely and utterly wrong. Just in the 2016 1st grade squad alone I count 10 out of 30 and that doesn't include lower grades or colts.

http://www.manlyrugby.com.au/team/meet-the-squad

While inevitably due to their locations clubs like Wests, Parramatta and Penrith are likely to have significant PI presence I'd say both Manly and Souths have always had reasonable representation as well.

 

[Quick Hands]

quick, I defer to your input.

There is always a problem in polemic positions and it wasnt actually my intent. I still suspect that there is a much greater PI population west of Parramatta. How much of the PI population is in Manly? Great they are being picked up but what about the populations that are being picked up by NRL as there is little other choice.

I love what Manly are doing, but it cant be a one stop shop solution to broadening Rugby to areas of possible strength at the grass roots.

I know the PI population is not just a west shindig. We have a (god I think its Tongan) church here in Balmain. Those guys are pretty cool, though I'm not sure they all live here. Welcome part of our community.

If grass roots investment is to be effective, we need take the ability of places like the Marlins and do it in areas that not "traditional rugby".

I'm not sure about the total population, but it's resaonably significant in an area which doesn't have as much diversity as other areas of Sydney. There's a Tongan Uniting Church at Dee Why and a Tongan Mormon Church at Harbord.

Absolutely there would be a bigger PI population in the outer suburbs than in Manly.

I've made the observation before that there are plenty of young kids like Israel Folau (who grew up in Minto), who have little or no opportunity to play junior rugby even though their dads' probably played the game back home.

I hope that part of the ARU strategy is to target primary schools which might be more receptive to rugby than others.

 

[RedsHappy]

Just in case this article has not been posted yet.........and its related Twitter thread is interesting as well..........the article title in the link is a good summary:

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/a...m-letting-wallabies-down-20160904-gr88x9.html

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Just in case this article has not been posted yet...and its related Twitter thread is interesting as well....the article title in the link is a good summary:

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/a...m-letting-wallabies-down-20160904-gr88x9.html

Hmm...

I'll start by stating that I did not attend any of these schools but I tend to disagree with the article. What is needed at that level is an expansion of schools competitions not the wholesale dismantling of existing structures which would likely see a severe backlash anyway.

The ARU needs to look to work with targeted schools to developed new schools Rugby competitions. For example, there are 8 Sports High Schools the Sydney/Hunter and Illawarra areas. The ARU should work with each of these schools to established a competition amongst these schools.

The author mentions that only 35% of schoolkids are educated in private schools. What he overlooks is that this is a growing segment of the education sector. I'm not saying we should ignore the public sector but working within a growing private system shouldn't be shunned.

However, this is all irrelevant to the actual issues that see talent move on to other sports post schooling. And that's the lack of an elite competition to bridge the gap between school and beyond. Now people will point out Club Rugby both Colts and Grade but I'm referring to an elite competition like the NRC provides.

I've known a number of Rugby players who have elected for League after school because they offer them an opportunity to develop in professional environments. Even if they aren't being paid. This is what we need to establish.

I for one believe a national Universities Championship similar to the Varsity Cup in SA would be an interesting drawcard for many. University studies are very accessible today especially with many possessing elite athlete programs and entry concession. Offering talented footballers the opportunity to train and play in a well structured, elite and professional environments that access to the facilities and coaching such a competition could provide. For those who fall outside of qualifying many Uni's have College's and arrangemwntss with TAFE organisations that could be used as well.

Players from schools and clubs could be invited to trial for spots in these programs. So they would be open to all.

 

[Quick Hands]

Just in case this article has not been posted yet...and its related Twitter thread is interesting as well....the article title in the link is a good summary:

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/a...m-letting-wallabies-down-20160904-gr88x9.html

I've been banging on on these threads for years about these very issues. The NSWRU/ARU essentially gave up on village club juniors years ago and outsourced development to the private school systems. Over on the schoolboy threads, from time to time an old Australian or NSW Schools team fro the 70s, 80s or early 90s is posted. Between 50% and 60% of players in those teams came from state schools. The vast majority would also have played club junnior rugby. Now we have the situation outlined in that article - which is now the norm. It was never going to be possible in the professional era for a handful of private schools to provide enough depth to sustain the Wallabies.

The observable truth is that all popular sports in Australia are junior club based, where the bulk of development goes on in clubs. Think cricket, netball, league, soccer, Aussie Rules, hockey, basketball, water polo and on and on it goes. Rugby is the only sport (with the possible exception of rowing), where this is not the case.

So the model is there - and sadly rugby had a reasonably good club based junior system a generation ago. It wasn't as good as it could have been as there wasn't really any attempt to expand with Sydney, but at least it was there. When I played juniors in the 70s, our strongest competitors at district level (in my age group anyway) were Parramatta and St George. St George don't exist anymore and Parramatta have been through a really tough time - it's a credit to a few dedicated volunteers out there that it's still going. Fortunately, it seems to be on the improve again.

 

[half]

WCR & QH

WCR, the article did not suggest the dismantling of the GPS structure. It simply pointed out the obvious most of the talent comes from state schools an if we are honest the kids at the state schools get coached by there local club and they take that training to the state school.

Your point on expanding into state schools IMO is near impossible as there is no or today a fragmented club structure. The key is local clubs and we are being swamped by other codes in this area and struggling for the better players.

ON, I too have been at times almost a lone wolf in bemoaning the fall in the value of the local park team.

Yet we still want the NCR to be about player development for higher teams when the planning is needed the other way more urgently

 

[Quick Hands]

I'll start by stating that I did not attend any of these schools but I tend to disagree with the article. What is needed at that level is an expansion of schools competitions not the wholesale dismantling of existing structures which would likely see a severe backlash anyway.

No one said anything about dismantling anything. School sport (including rugby) still goes on in the private system regardless of what happens in club land. For example the GPS schools in Melbourne (where they call themselves APS) all play Aussie Rules against each other in the same way that the Sydney schools play rugby. It's not an either/or proposition. But the club system is the main one. Soccer has as big a competition in the Sydney GPS as does rugby, but it's not the main player development ara either - that occurs in club land.

Hmm.



For example, there are 8 Sports High Schools the Sydney/Hunter and Illawarra areas. The ARU should work with each of these schools to established a competition amongst these schools.

This already occurs. The 8 state sports high schools played off to be the CHS representative in the Waratah Shield.

The biggest problem with having the school systems are our main place of player development is that the schools play the sports which reflect their demographic. Even in the GPS schools, rugby is on the decline because an increasing number of students aren't interested in playing and/or come from a background where rugby isn't played. So at High, Grammar, Newington and Kings there are now more soccer players than rugby players. Some of the GPS schools have introduced/are introducing AFL. Same story in the CAS system.

 

[Quick Hands]

WCR & QH

WCR, the article did not suggest the dismantling of the GPS structure. It simply pointed out the obvious most of the talent comes from state schools an if we are honest the kids at the state schools get coached by there local club and they take that training to the state school.

Your point on expanding into state schools IMO is near impossible as there is no or today a fragmented club structure. The key is local clubs and we are being swamped by other codes in this area and struggling for the better players.

ON, I too have been at times almost a lone wolf in bemoaning the fall in the value of the local park team.

Yet we still want the NCR to be about player development for higher teams when the planning is needed the other way more urgently

You haven't been alone, but we're certainly in the minority.

If for example the junior club rugby system from the 1970s was intact and newer areas had been added as Sydney expanded, the Wallabies wouldn't need fixing. We'd have a strong vibrant club based junior development system slightly smaller than other codes, but big enough to get our share of the junior talent, big enough to have a player base of the right size and thus big enough to fill subbies, SS clubs, NRC clubs, super clubs and the Wallabies with good players.

 

[Pfitzy]

Drop the barriers between schools rugby. Let everyone have a look at how its done. A longer school season wouldn't be a bad idea as a result, with more interconnection.

Sure, teams are going to get thrashed going up against the top GPS sides, but they're not going to learn otherwise. The GPS might even learn a few things once they're not just the big fish in a very small pool.

Junior club rugby is so fragmented that it can no longer exist, except in pockets. Promoting 7s via Primary Schools, and then XVs in late high school (after maybe 10s in between) can produce a sound pathway.

Its nothing to do with ARU governance over GPS either. Its about everyone coming together to improve Australian rugby, not their little inbred patch of it.