Pumas v Wallabies, Rosario, 5th October 2013

[cyclopath]

Well, all I can say is thank fuck we now have a Victorian coach who played for the brumbies and waratahs as well as coached the tahs and reds.

Hopefully he holidayed in Perth a lot, and maybe, just maybe he truly will be the messiah that finally bands us together.

(Or maybe he is just a very naughty boy.)

Actually JOC (James O'Connor) is the keystone that will unite Aus rugby - developed in Qld, played in Perth, Melbourne and soon Sydney, drove through Canberra.
Err, I'll see myself out.

 

[Pfitzy]

On yer bike

 

[cyclopath]

On yer bike

Would if I could.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

On yer bike

Would if I could.

Get a big dog up ya .... oh no that's right dogs can cause cycling accidents .

 

[Sully]

My totally unbiased and professionally written post mortem is up on the blog.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/observation-from-argentina-v-wallabies/

 

[Scrubber2050]

THOUGHT THE FORWARDS WENT OK BUT DID NOT DOMINATE TOTALLY.

THE BACKS PLAYED VERY WELL - ATTACKED - RAN HARD AND BROKE THE LINE.

jUST GOES TO SHOW ALL THE EXPERTS OUT THERE THAT YOU DONT NEED THE FORWARDS TO BELT THE OTHER SIDE IF THE BACKS DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO. sURE IT MAKES IT EASIER BUT SUPPOSEDLY WE HAVE THIS FANTASTIC BACKLINE THAT IS HAMSTRUNG BY THE FORWARDS - BULLSHIT

lAST WEEK SHOWED THAT THE BACKS CAN STAND UP, DO PLENTY OF DAMAGE if THEY PLAY WELL - THEY DID AND LOOK AT THE SCORE

 

[Scrubber2050]

My totally unbiased and professionally written post mortem is up on the blog.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/observation-from-argentina-v-wallabies/

Good take Sully

 

[emuarse]

Guys I really think all of you should take an unbiased second look at Simmons tackle. He just stood there and conteponi ran into him. Dumb maybe. wrong place wrong time definitely. On purpose? no.

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I agree with you Sully. As I had recorded the game I was watching it a second time. Simmons didn't really do a shoulder charge; his arms were loose. His big mistake was that he didn't try to back off when the ball wasn't going to Contemponi. And Contemponi, if he doesn't want to carry on in medicine, should get a job acting. He's very good at it.
And on the whole, I thought Simmons had a great game at lock. He did his share of the work in the scrums, his defence was first rate, and he was into the breakdowns.
Would the rabid Simmon knockers go and take a shower, and then look at a replay of the game. You just might come away with a different opinion of Simmons. Although in many cases you are so biased, that I doubt it.

 

[barbarian]

Would the rabid Simmon knockers go and take a shower, and then look at a replay of the game. You just might come away with a different opinion of Simmons. Although in many cases you are so biased, that I doubt it.

Yes, yes that is it. Everyone who doesn't like Rob Simmons is only of that opinion because they are biased.

I struggle with Simmons because he is not quite up to international rugby. You point to his good work on the weekend, but the things you list are just core lock duties- hitting rucks, pushing in the scrum, jumping in the lineout. And yes, Simmons does that to an acceptable level (but only just- according to the stats his workrate was far from outstanding).

But he doesn't get his hands on the ball enough, his defence is far from brutal, and he lacks the little touches that separates the OK lock from the good lock. And then he commits a fucking stupid offence and gets yellow carded.

He played really well in the first Bledisloe, but hasn't come close to that performance since then. His rating is perennially around 5/10.

The issue is the lack of an obvious replacement, and I think that is what is keeping him in the side. I would like to see Fardy moved to lock, with McCalman coming into 8 and Mowen moving to 6. Or even Timani given a shot, who offers a bit more physicality around the park. Or Pyle, or Douglas.

Because at the moment I just can't see any improvement in Simmons.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

What Simmons did is a yellow card offence every day of the week. He has hit someone without the ball using no arms in the tackle.

If there was no malice in the action then it would almost be worse in my opinion. That would just make it a stupid, careless action that results in his side playing with one less player for 10 minutes.

Surely we have to demand a higher standard of our players than just giving away careless, lazy yellow cards. In a close game, that could have easily been the difference.

Sure, Contepomi hammed it up a bit but that is entirely his right to do so. It is a pretty normal aspect of professional sport that players will highlight aspects of foul play by the opposition to the officials because there is an advantage for their team to be gained.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I agree with you Sully. As I had recorded the game I was watching it a second time. Simmons didn't really do a shoulder charge; his arms were loose. His big mistake was that he didn't try to back off when the ball wasn't going to Contemponi. And Contemponi, if he doesn't want to carry on in medicine, should get a job acting. He's very good at it.
And on the whole, I thought Simmons had a great game at lock. He did his share of the work in the scrums, his defence was first rate, and he was into the breakdowns.
Would the rabid Simmon knockers go and take a shower, and then look at a replay of the game. You just might come away with a different opinion of Simmons. Although in many cases you are so biased, that I doubt it.

I have watched the game three times (not often we get a Wallabies game deserving of repeat viewings). The Simmons tackle, at best, was no arms on a player not in possession of the ball, rather than a shoulder charge. As such, still deserving a YC. His ankle tap tackle on a winger at pace was very good (almost exceptional) and he did secure a couple of restarts from memory.

I have a similar view to Barbarian, that he is an average lock, but not really the standard I would like to see playing in test matches. Unlike Barbarian, I do think there are better options available - the problem is that neither Deans nor Link to date gave any of them a go. Pyle imo should have been in the team in Simmons' place a year ago. I also think that Neville would have been better value if given a go, although he might one day replace Big Kev if he doesn't regain some form. ATM I would have Fardy in the second row, and start Mowen at 6 and Ben McC at 8, with Luke Jones on the bench.

 

[Braveheart81]

Guys I really think all of you should take an unbiased second look at Simmons tackle. He just stood there and conteponi ran into him. Dumb maybe. wrong place wrong time definitely. On purpose? no.

Combining this opinion with your one regarding Benn Robinson (that in the last two tests he hasn't really made much improvement to our scrum), I'm interested as to whether you're trying to play devil's advocate or just trying to temper the opinions of those you feel are a bit one-eyed.

I think both the arguments you're trying to make are far harder to support than the argument that most forum posters are making.

On face value of the two incidents, you've got one where Rob Simmons tackled a player without using his arms who never had the ball.

In the other one you've had our scrum under massive pressure with at least three penalties in a row on our five metre line (albeit all for different offences) and then when Robinson comes on to replace the yellow carded Slipper, suddenly our scrum remains solid for the first time and the Pumas can't get the drive on and end up making a mistake.

It seems to me that there is more likely to be bias involved in arguing that these two incidents are anything other than what they obviously appeared to be. That is, Rob Simmons carelessly taking a player out without the ball that deserved a yellow card and Benn Robinson having an immediate impact on a scrum that was struggling badly.

 

[fatprop]

On Robinson, he comes on and starts driving in on the TH, then under pressure the Argie pack suddenly crabs away from his side and the ball pops out.

Yep clearly a coincidence

On Simmons, it was lazy and careless and it was dumb, I thought he had got this shit out of his system, he is an OK lock when not being lazy, careless and dumb.

But I am more concerned with Horwill, he needs a rest, he has to be wounded, he is a better, more dynamic lock than his current form is showing.

 

[Ignoto]

But I am more concerned with Horwill, he needs a rest, he has to be wounded, he is a better, more dynamic lock than his current form is showing.

I wonder the impact all those scrums had on his workrate around the park? I can't remember if it was Sharpie or Palmer who said on the podcast the draining effect playing on the TH has.

 

[Zander]

That penalty against Horwill for Argentina's first points was complete bullshit. There was no ruck, no other Wallaby joined/binded after the tackle.

 

[Sully]

Combining this opinion with your one regarding Benn Robinson (that in the last two tests he hasn't really made much improvement to our scrum), I'm interested as to whether you're trying to play devil's advocate or just trying to temper the opinions of those you feel are a bit one-eyed.

I challenge you to find any where where I say Robinson is not the better proportion where I say I think he shouldn't be staying. Don't put words in my mouth. What I did say was in that one scrum there was little difference to the seven before it. We still went back at a rate of knots and it was only poor work from the pumas that saved Robinson from being pinged for boring. That would have been a penalty try for sure.
Was our scrum better that eight time? Who knows. Was it significantly better. No way.


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[Sully]

As for Simmons I've said repeatedly that I thought it was a yellow card. I'm less certain that he did it on purpose. If it was on purpose then it probably shows some of the mythical mongrel that many punters have been calling for.

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[I like to watch]

I want players showing mongrel by smashing the ball carrier legally.
Taking a cheap shot off the ball is showing something different to that.

 

[Braveheart81]

I challenge you to find any where where I say Robinson is not the better proportion where I say I think he shouldn't be staying. Don't put words in my mouth. What I did say was in that one scrum there was little difference to the seven before it. We still went back at a rate of knots and it was only poor work from the pumas that saved Robinson from being pinged for boring. That would have been a penalty try for sure.
Was our scrum better that eight time? Who knows. Was it significantly better. No way.


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I'll firstly say that I think I worded that a bit more harshly than I should have. From looking back through posts I think I attributed more of an anti-Robinson vibe to you than is there in reality.

I guess my thinking along that path was created when you suggested that he was possibly dropped because of:

There is a general belief that smaller props will struggle under the new scrum laws. The Lions series and the Shute shield are not being played under them and for all we know Robinson may have really struggled with them in camp.

and then after he was recalled to the bench:

Or Benn Robinson would instantly fix our scrum. That's hilarious.

and then the first point of your eight points on the front page:

1. Benn Robinson didn’t really save us.

I’ve heard around the traps that Benn was the difference in that scrum and that’s why the ball popped out. To me it looked just like the seven scrums before it. What do you think?

It was certainly the first point from your post on the front page that set me off. It seems either like a really good piece of fishing (which certainly hooked me) or you'd prefer to put the reversal of our scrum fortunes solely down to luck than a personnel change.

 

[It is what it is]

It was great to see the Wallabies having fun and enjoying themselves again.