RWC 2015 Semi Final 2 - Australia v Argentina Twickenham, Monday 19 October, 2:45 AEDT

[ACT Crusader]

There's no way Foley will get dropped, let alone for Quade. I don't mind Quade and think he's shown a new maturity to his game, but if Foley was really struggling last week and the coach didn't replace him then, then there's no way he's going to do it in a higher pressure test match.

Foley is Chieka's man to run the cutter. Yes there were some poor play and execution vs the Scots, but if you've backed him this far because you know he can do the job required, then you keep backing him.

I was a little surprised that To'omua didn't get a run vs the Scots though. I expect he will this weekend as the Argies backline present a very different proposition to the Scots one.

 

[No4918]

Foley kicked his first goal from the sideline to start the second half then kicked a penalty. It seemed like he'd finally found his kicking boots. By that point of the game the Wallabies had scored four tries. How exactly was Foley struggling?

He then makes the shocking error giving away the charge down try. At that point it's clear the game is likely to go down to the wire. Are you going to hook your kicker at that point and hope that the replacement kicks well straight away?

Who else do you bring Cooper on for? Beale was our best player, Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) had scored 3 tries between them and were playing well.

To'omua could have come on for Giteau but Gits was playing well.

Haven't you admitted Foley struggled? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it was you i read that agreed with someone that the Fox rating of 8 was more like a 5. Cooper won't play, no need to now talk Foley's game up to those who think Cooper will come in. He had an off night and that's as far as it will go.

On the bench use, I thought it was strange that To'omua at least didn't come on. The bench, or 'finishers', have been talked up all season and the first time things really matter they aren't used. Does Cheika not have as much faith in them as we think?

 

[Braveheart81]

Haven't you admitted Foley struggled? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it was you i read that agreed with someone that the Fox rating of 8 was more like a 5. Cooper won't play, no need to now talk Foley's game up to those who think Cooper will come in. He had an off night and that's as far as it will go.

On the bench use, I thought it was strange that To'omua at least didn't come on. The bench, or 'finishers', have been talked up all season and the first time things really matter they aren't used. Does Cheika not have as much faith in them as we think?

Foley's biggest mistake came in the second half when he gave away a try. His struggles in the first half were mostly goal kicking related.

The question has been raised as to why Cheika didn't use his bench. I'm trying to analyse that and come up with reasoning why.

The comment "Cheika should have used his bench" doesn't really mean a whole lot without trying to ascertain when and how he should have done that.

When do you think Cooper and To'omua should have been brought on and for who?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

If Cooper in future games beyond RWC can prove he deserves to start at 10 and can be consistent and form warrants it - I am all for starting Cooper.

But he simply has not sold any case for him starting at this point in recent performances, so until he shows in at least one game a very good game at 10 I struggle to see why so many people want to discuss how brilliant he is. Lets wait until he plays the game that proves it and lets stop raising how Cooper does this or that whilst RWC is on as who cares at this point as we are not about to start Cooper for any of the remaining RWC matches which is focus of this thread re: RWC semi final game.

 

[Viking]

His first half had one bad error and poor goal kicking. If you were going to hook him it was at half time. We'd also scored 3 tries by half time and our backline was threatening regularly.

His first half was more then "one bad error and poor goal-kicking".
4min: he pushed a pass a 50/50 ball to Mitchell and blew a try. Where was the patience?
16min: He fails at contesting a high ball. He needs to stop dropping back or learn how to catch.
22min: He chip kicks ahead wayyyy to far. Another blown chance and another turn of momentum.
41min: No look pass to Fardy who drops it. I put more blame on Fardy for this one but it's yet another error with Foley's involvment. Poor communication and pushing passes again.

He made a one or two threatening runs and that's about it. A poor first half performance in my view.

The point I was making was that by the time Cheika would generally bring on the finishers, Foley had got his goalkicking together and the team looked good. He then made the shocking error and it was clear that the game was likely to go down to the wire. Do you then decide that you're going to switch your goal kicker?

I agree with you on this. He should have been changed earlier. Or Gits could have swapped for To'omua at a later stage.

Which games are you talking about where Cooper was pulled at close to half time? In the 2nd Bledisloe he came off at the 57 minute mark after his yellow card expired. The game was also lost by that point.

Against South Africa this year he was replaced at the 65 minute mark.

Your memory of the treatment of Cooper doesn't seem to reflect reality.

If you count the yellow cards he plays closer to 45mins.

.
You're also suggesting that Cheika should have reshuffled his backline at halftime by bringing on To'omua on the basis of one bad dropped ball and three missed kicks.

How is making a straight swap for Foley - To'omua to 10, Or
A straight swap for Gits at 12 - To'omua to 12, a reshuffling of the backline?

.
What coach is going to make that decision after his team has scored three first half tries and enjoyed a strong possession and territory advantage?

The first half riddled with errors comment is a complete fallacy outside of his goal kicking.

Already answered this.

 

[cyclopath]

I am not trying to stoke the fire here but this is very true.

No, it really isn't, especially in regard to posts being deleted on the forum.
Posts get deleted if they double up, if they are completely off topic, if they're spam, if the poster gets an infraction (sometimes), and if they are abusive. Posts merely criticising a player do not get deleted unless they breach the forum rules.
Trust me, if I deleted even 10% of posts that get reported, or gave infractions to 10% of those transgressing, there'd be holes all over these threads and substantially fewer posters.
I'm not going to argue regarding whether individuals are more or less critical of some players than others as it is inevitably the case in any forum.
And I am not talking about the front page either. That's a zoo.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Pretty much all average, with the exception of Uruguay which was very good (Kicking and Card dropping down from excellent) and Bledisloe II which was poor (Mostly due to Yellow Card which put Aus under the pump big time).

 

[No4918]

Foley's biggest mistake came in the second half when he gave away a try. His struggles in the first half were mostly goal kicking related.

The question has been raised as to why Cheika didn't use his bench. I'm trying to analyse that and come up with reasoning why.

The comment "Cheika should have used his bench" doesn't really mean a whole lot without trying to ascertain when and how he should have done that.

When do you think Cooper and To'omua should have been brought on and for who?

That's my problem with the bench. In hindsight it was a big risk carrying two inside backs if he wasn't prepared to use them if things got tight. Cheika has admitted to possibly letting the players dwell on the Enland/Wales victories and it seems he may have been guilty also of taking the Scots lightly.

 

[cyclopath]

Haven't you admitted Foley struggled? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it was you i read that agreed with someone that the Fox rating of 8 was more like a 5. Cooper won't play, no need to now talk Foley's game up to those who think Cooper will come in. He had an off night and that's as far as it will go.

On the bench use, I thought it was strange that To'omua at least didn't come on. The bench, or 'finishers', have been talked up all season and the first time things really matter they aren't used. Does Cheika not have as much faith in them as we think?

I was surprised To'omua didn't come on too, but I get the impression Cheika does not see To'omua as finishing at 10, rather at 12, and for whatever reason, he didn't want to hook Giteau. Just my theory.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Posts get deleted because the general vibe of the posts about Cooper are that if Foley did the same negative thing he wouldn't be judged as harshly or if it's about Foley that if Cooper did that he'd be torn to shreds. They are the definition of playing the man because they don't actually engage with the issues. They just speculate about how the treatment would have been different.

People supporting Cooper regularly lose the plot and start complaining of conspiracies, anti Qld bias and all manner of rubbish. There is a long line of posters who get more and more angry about this supposed treatment of Cooper until they start abusing other users, authors of articles and Matt Rowley for having some sort of vendetta against Cooper. They take it to the point where there is no choice for the moderators but to delete the posts and ban them,

When people try to bring up issues such as repeated yellow cards they get accused of clutching at straws and having a vendetta against Cooper.

There is also a significant crossover of posters on the front page of this site and The Roar who pretty much only engage on this issue.

Most of their posts relate to speculation of how the author of an article or a commentor's response would have varied if it had been Cooper rather than Foley.

I get all this and I hope that this standard is maintained.

 

[I like to watch]

Foley's biggest mistake came in the second half when he gave away a try. His struggles in the first half were mostly goal kicking related.

The question has been raised as to why Cheika didn't use his bench. I'm trying to analyse that and come up with reasoning why.

The comment "Cheika should have used his bench" doesn't really mean a whole lot without trying to ascertain when and how he should have done that.

When do you think Cooper and To'omua should have been brought on and for who?

I would have replaced Gits with To'omua with 20 to go at the latest.
To'omua is a little more dynamic than Gits,and his straight running in that channel might have paid off.
but I would have been just as happy had he replaced the 10.

 

[swingpass]

i think the die is cast, there wont be any unforced ie injury changes from here on in. i am a very big fan of QC (Quade Cooper), IMO in form and after playing regularly he is far and away the best flyhalf in Australia (but not at the moment i will grant you all that) but he will not displace Foley, nor should he. short of Folau replacing Beale, i cant see a different backline come monday morning. Phipps, To'omua and Beale to finish.

 

[Braveheart81]

His first half was more then "one bad error and poor goal-kicking".
4min: he pushed a pass a 50/50 ball to Mitchell and blew a try. Where was the patience?
16min: He fails at contesting a high ball. He needs to stop dropping back or learn how to catch.
22min: He chip kicks ahead wayyyy to far. Another blown chance and another turn of momentum.
41min: No look pass to Fardy who drops it. I put more blame on Fardy for this one but it's yet another error with Foley's involvment. Poor communication and pushing passes again.

He made a one or two threatening runs and that's about it. A poor first half performance in my view.

Alternatively, Mitchell blew an early try because he didn't catch the offload that he should have. Maybe Foley should have hung onto it, but a try was beckoning. I don't think there was anything particularly wrong with the offload.

He got beaten in the air on a high ball. It happens. Even Folau has struggled under the high ball this RWC.

We were on a break and Foley was isolated. Absolutely the kick wasn't executed well but perhaps a kick was still the best option.

Of course that was Fardy's fault. The pass that went straight to Fardy. He's meant to catch that.

No coach on the planet is going to drag their 10 at halftime on that basis.

If you count the yellow cards he plays closer to 45mins.

The game doesn't suddenly go for 90 minutes because Cooper was yellow carded.

Does the coach decide he needs 10 more minutes to prove his worth because he fucked up and spent 10 minutes sitting on the sideline?

 

[EatSleepDrinkRuck]

Can we please just admit that this thread has jumped the shark and start a new one?

 

[Jellic87]

Any discussion about our opposition for this weekend? Apparently Argentina have a pretty handy No 10 themselves!

 

[Viking]

Alternatively, Mitchell blew an early try because he didn't catch the offload that he should have. Maybe Foley should have hung onto it, but a try was beckoning. I don't think there was anything particularly wrong with the offload.

He got beaten in the air on a high ball. It happens. Even Folau has struggled under the high ball this RWC.

We were on a break and Foley was isolated. Absolutely the kick wasn't executed well but perhaps a kick was still the best option.

Of course that was Fardy's fault. The pass that went straight to Fardy. He's meant to catch that.

No coach on the planet is going to drag their 10 at halftime on that basis.

He had direct involvement in all those errors. Yes Mitchell was ALSO to blame but that doesn't mean you IGNORE Foley's direct involvements in making these errors which is exactly what you are doing.

Funny that you accuse posters of ignoring Coopers fault but you clearly do the same for Foley.

You have tried to justify every one of his errors but it doesn't change the fact THEY ARE ERRORS.

When you got players like Cooper and To'omua on the bench I don't see it as an illogical choice replace him. Agree to disagree here.

You don't believe Foley had a bad game. I do. Let's leave it at that, there is obviously no changing your mind.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

So where do we see the threats and weaknesses for the Argies....

Smaller Argie outside backs means should see TK taking a few up for some crash through balls out the back.....and our forwards targeting them as well..

Forwards / scrum for Argies obviously a threat given what happened against Scotland. We also lost a few key turnovers against Scotland so hopefully pocock back fixes that up.

 

[jollyswagman]

No, it really isn't, especially in regard to posts being deleted on the forum.
Posts get deleted if they double up, if they are completely off topic, if they're spam, if the poster gets an infraction (sometimes), and if they are abusive. Posts merely criticising a player do not get deleted unless they breach the forum rules.
Trust me, if I deleted even 10% of posts that get reported, or gave infractions to 10% of those transgressing, there'd be holes all over these threads and substantially fewer posters.
I'm not going to argue regarding whether individuals are more or less critical of some players than others as it is inevitably the case in any forum.
And I am not talking about the front page either. That's a zoo.

Yep, sorry Dave. I should have taken a second to edit the part of the post I was expressing my agreement with, which was......

Cooper played better against Uruguay than Foley did against Scotland, yet the criticism of Cooper was far greater even though he only made two mistakes and didn't nearly cost the game.

The point being I believe Cooper gets a much harder time from the pundits in here than Foley does......call it a double standard of sorts but I am fairly certain that I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

[BDA]

It does seem that discussion about Cooper should be on a different thread. He's not going to be in the 15, and probably wont make the 23. Foley's performances in the Pool stage have solidified him as our 10 for a while, so those people who are trying the champion Cooper's cause should just chill out. Even if the Wallabies get thrashed against Argentina on Sunday and Foley produces a career worst performance, he'd probably still start at 10 for at least the first two games of June Test Series next year. That said, Foley will have to step it up this weekend.

 

[Jellic87]

So where do we see the threats and weaknesses for the Argies..

Smaller Argie outside backs means should see TK taking a few up for some crash through balls out the back...and our forwards targeting them as well..

Forwards / scrum for Argies obviously a threat given what happened against Scotland. We also lost a few key turnovers against Scotland so hopefully pocock back fixes that up.

Absolutely a threat in the forwards! Let's hope we can find some of that from in the scrumming we were showing earlier in the tournament however i think alot of this relies on whether Sio plays or not.

i don't know much about Sanchez, but from what i saw on the weekend he can really turn it on! Anyone else seen much more of him other than at the RWC?