The Tahs 2009
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Spook
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I think Waugh should chase the cash whilst he can. He has been an excellent servent for the Tahs.
Aussie D said:
They employed Matt Bourke as kicking coach
The Waugh article is the usual pre contract negotiation PR stuff. Waugh will be under pressure and is likely to get a contract downgrade and less games with Pocock coming through.
I just get amazed these guys can play with broken ribs, I had a couple over the years and they bloody hurt.
I didn't have an idea that Waugh played with a broken rib in 2008, but in hindsight: I was talking to his dad at the ground near the end of the S14 and I said something like: "How's Phil bearing up after some hard games," and he said something like: "I won't talk out of school."
Big deal - I thought he was referring to captaincy type problems with his players or a minor niggle, but now the penny has dropped.
Another penny has dropped - when I watched the Wallabies have their first training run at Manly Oval not long after the Super14 final, there was Waugh (and Hoiles) standing apart from all the other players and not participating in the work.
FOS
Waugh is not being forced to go to Europe but you wouldn't expect him to play, even for his beloved Waratahs, at the standard rate of $120,000, or so, a year. If he doesn't get topped up or gets topped up by a piddling amount by the ARU, he'd have to go offshore.
With the current economic climate the ARU may not want to have 3 no.7s in their top up pool. Or they may decide to top up just Smith and Pocock and be looking at somebody like Beau Robinson as a cheaper 3rd guy.
One thing for sure: Pocock's rise can not be denied. Even Smith will have to look to his laurels in a year or two
Aussie D
Well, they haven't signed up any elite goal kickers.
As I've said a few times: Beale got the job last year by default. Turner was kicking them from everywhere in the trial at Gosford against the Brumbies, but that was in the warm up. As soon as the game started he missed everything and when Beale had his turn in the 3rd and 4th quarters he nailed everything.
As I have said before also: I saw Turner slotting the ball well in a couple of Sydney club matches last season; so hopefully he will earn the gig in the trials.
Matt Burke was saying that Beale had a leg swing like a round the corner kicker but instead of contacting the ball with his instep, he contacted with his toe. Perhaps two of Joeys' finest can work together to produce a more reliable goal kicking percentage for the Waratahs.
Big deal - I thought he was referring to captaincy type problems with his players or a minor niggle, but now the penny has dropped.
Another penny has dropped - when I watched the Wallabies have their first training run at Manly Oval not long after the Super14 final, there was Waugh (and Hoiles) standing apart from all the other players and not participating in the work.
FOS
Waugh is not being forced to go to Europe but you wouldn't expect him to play, even for his beloved Waratahs, at the standard rate of $120,000, or so, a year. If he doesn't get topped up or gets topped up by a piddling amount by the ARU, he'd have to go offshore.
With the current economic climate the ARU may not want to have 3 no.7s in their top up pool. Or they may decide to top up just Smith and Pocock and be looking at somebody like Beau Robinson as a cheaper 3rd guy.
One thing for sure: Pocock's rise can not be denied. Even Smith will have to look to his laurels in a year or two
Aussie D
Well, they haven't signed up any elite goal kickers.
As I've said a few times: Beale got the job last year by default. Turner was kicking them from everywhere in the trial at Gosford against the Brumbies, but that was in the warm up. As soon as the game started he missed everything and when Beale had his turn in the 3rd and 4th quarters he nailed everything.
As I have said before also: I saw Turner slotting the ball well in a couple of Sydney club matches last season; so hopefully he will earn the gig in the trials.
Matt Burke was saying that Beale had a leg swing like a round the corner kicker but instead of contacting the ball with his instep, he contacted with his toe. Perhaps two of Joeys' finest can work together to produce a more reliable goal kicking percentage for the Waratahs.
Totally unsurprising that - and a great pity. We won't see him in the S14 whatever noises they are making.
To quote myself:
So - just like Palu was when he was at the Dragons then - a 120 kgs plus guy who was doing a training load not suited to his body type. The feet and ankles go first.
He should have been brought along as a foward of his weight is brought on. I bet the forwards don't have the backs type training else half the props in the S14 would be damaged the same way.
I wouldn't be surprised if my surmising is close to the mark. The science of how big footie guys have to be trained so as not be be damaged in training must be far behind what they do in the NFL - and yeah I know that what a defensive or offensive lineman or tight end has to do in their footie is different to what a 120 kg winger has to do in ours, but I bet they would have it down pat if you brought their trainers over here for pre-season training.
The Tahs wouldn't be the first rugby team to stuff up a player - if that is what happened. The Bulldogs trainers couldn't believe it when they saw a TV spot of SBW training with the Toulon mob. They said that SBW had to be constrained from doing certain exercises that could damage his hamstrings and they saw him on the TV doing exactly the kind of exercises that he was not allowed to do for them.
I bet they weren't surprised a few weeks later when he crocked his hamstring.
But I digress. I wasn't counting on seeing a lot of Big Rat this year but it's a real shame for him and rugby lovers. I hope the Tahs dietitians are taking him in hand and getting him eating the right stuff. If he can't get down to 115 kgs and head lighter still he's not going to have a very long pro footy career. He's still under contract so he should have a weigh-in twice a week.
If he does get lighter and can get around the park later in the year I wouldn't mind seeing him in the Oz Sevens team despite the whingeing we will hear from Randwick way.
To quote myself:
Lee Grant said:
So - just like Palu was when he was at the Dragons then - a 120 kgs plus guy who was doing a training load not suited to his body type. The feet and ankles go first.
He should have been brought along as a foward of his weight is brought on. I bet the forwards don't have the backs type training else half the props in the S14 would be damaged the same way.
I wouldn't be surprised if my surmising is close to the mark. The science of how big footie guys have to be trained so as not be be damaged in training must be far behind what they do in the NFL - and yeah I know that what a defensive or offensive lineman or tight end has to do in their footie is different to what a 120 kg winger has to do in ours, but I bet they would have it down pat if you brought their trainers over here for pre-season training.
The Tahs wouldn't be the first rugby team to stuff up a player - if that is what happened. The Bulldogs trainers couldn't believe it when they saw a TV spot of SBW training with the Toulon mob. They said that SBW had to be constrained from doing certain exercises that could damage his hamstrings and they saw him on the TV doing exactly the kind of exercises that he was not allowed to do for them.
I bet they weren't surprised a few weeks later when he crocked his hamstring.
But I digress. I wasn't counting on seeing a lot of Big Rat this year but it's a real shame for him and rugby lovers. I hope the Tahs dietitians are taking him in hand and getting him eating the right stuff. If he can't get down to 115 kgs and head lighter still he's not going to have a very long pro footy career. He's still under contract so he should have a weigh-in twice a week.
If he does get lighter and can get around the park later in the year I wouldn't mind seeing him in the Oz Sevens team despite the whingeing we will hear from Randwick way.
F
formeropenside
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Lee Grant said:
Lee, this is actually one of the most important things anyone has ever said here on TYS. I hope that the S14 sides do shortly figure out how to take advantage of things like the US NFL training courses to better maintain and develop players. I remember a while back that Dan Crowley said that rugby could potentially learn some power tips from Sumo wrestlers - he meant it in a scrummaging context, but I assume nothing ever came of it.
The Australian cricket team apparently improved a lot under the US fielding coach who was an ex-baseball coach: new tips on throwing and so on. Thats an exemple of the kind of benefit that can be gained.
Lastly on that point, I'd love to see the Reds get ex-Australian cricket coach Buchanan down to a few training sessions to see what he would come up with. With a son in Qld U-19's, I assume he knows something about rugby. And for all that Warne bagged Buchanan out, he was a coach who got a lot more out of some players than he had any right to.
Mind you, as Warne's recent commentary stint shows, Warne has a hell of a cricket brain. I imagine he did not need a lot of coaching. Its just a shame that Warne's off-field brain is located in his trousers. If only Warne had succeeded Waugh as Australian captain ahead of Ponting.
But I digress, as LG would say.
formeropenside said:
NFL guys have been in serious programs through high school and college. That gives them the platform.
Just look at the NRL development programs, they have kids developing core strength from 14yro with complete programs, we get our elites to play 10 private school matches and a couple of rep games a year.
R
rugbywhisperer
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We are getting into a very close pet subject of mine.
For years I have trained athletes, most predominantly sprinters and rugby players and for years I have been banging my head against a very dumb wall of officialdom in trying to get them to realise that the training of backs is not, and never should be put anywhere near the same training as forwards and for that matter each position in many ways demands it's own specifics in strength, fitness (aerobic and recovery) agility and speed.
I highlite the recent disastrous results on young Caleb Brown and how the QRU training/strength gurus basically ruined a very fit and fast athlete by demanding too high an increase in body weight over a too short a time without the proper adjustments in training. I would love to hear Dean Benton's real reasons for leaving the Reds so abruptly and knowing him as I do I fully suspect it was on the training issues that are just so archaic and ill implemented for each position.
For years I have trained athletes, most predominantly sprinters and rugby players and for years I have been banging my head against a very dumb wall of officialdom in trying to get them to realise that the training of backs is not, and never should be put anywhere near the same training as forwards and for that matter each position in many ways demands it's own specifics in strength, fitness (aerobic and recovery) agility and speed.
I highlite the recent disastrous results on young Caleb Brown and how the QRU training/strength gurus basically ruined a very fit and fast athlete by demanding too high an increase in body weight over a too short a time without the proper adjustments in training. I would love to hear Dean Benton's real reasons for leaving the Reds so abruptly and knowing him as I do I fully suspect it was on the training issues that are just so archaic and ill implemented for each position.
F
formeropenside
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rugbywhisperer said:
Dean Benton?
Good points there fatprop.
I used to work in the US and I had a mate whose teenager had to go through all that training at high school for a few games on Friday night. Incidentally, he never had any ambitions to get a college football scholarship as he wasn't good enough, but the dad said the high school training discipline stood him in good stead to get through college when he was on his own.
You are dead right about the programmes the league guys have for their youngsters. A 18 or 19 year old league player is about 2 years ahead physically of his union counterpart, whatever his ethnicity, and you can see it when they run onto the park in their respective sports.
Somebody disagreed with me on this forum because he hadn't seen it himself in Queensland, but to be fair: he probably hadn't seen enough.
But I digress.
It's all the more reason why a young bloke like Big Rat shouldn't be treated the same as somebody who has been exposed to a heavy load of training over the years. He probably did little intense training before he reported to the Tahs a few months back. He's probably in the same situation as Winston Mafi (Alfi's brother) a few years ago.
He was 22 or something like that when he joined the Tahs, and had never lifted a weight in his life.
FOS
Yeah Warne has a wonderful cricket brain and had he been a company man he would have been the permanent ODI captain of Australia rather than just filling in, and maybe a chance to succeed Waugh as test captain. Not being so, and the spot not being vacant during the Waugh regime, it's just as well he didn't become permanent captain at any level as he would have ended up like his good mate Pietersen.
He's not the only good cricket captain that we've missed out over the years. Keith Miller should have got the job for the South African tour when Hassett retired. Likewise, after Chappell junior retired, Rod Marsh would have stayed in cricket had he got the job for a tour of the Windies, but it went to Hughes instead, and he hung up the boots.
Marsh was overlooked for a younger man who looked the part at the time but it would have been better had Marsh been at the helm during that time of mediocrity in Oz cricket.
Miller wasn't even picked for that tour of South Africa, originally, but it wasn't on merit. It had more to do with the malign hand of company man Bradman in the selection panel. Nor was it the first time that the great man intervened - he had done it earlier when he gave his opinion in the 1930s that 'Grum' Grimmett should not make another Ashes tour.
Since Marsh stopped playing his cricket brain has been utilised well at home and offshore, and as for Keith Miller: Richie Benaud said he was the best captain that he ever played under.
Buchanan? Only an ego masseur type coach like Duncan Fletcher could have got on with a Warne type player, just as he got on with Pietersen. Buchanan was strictly meat and potatoes and a 'did his job' type coach who probably got on with the bulk of the players during his tenure and didn't get bothered if a few stars didn't respect his knowledge.
Digressing, I know, but Buchanan must be proud of his two sons. I've mentioned Nicholas in my posts about the 2008 Oz Schools tournament, his selection for Oz Schools and his being a likely senior player in the second row because his handling skills in the lineout, his work rate and his not being afraid to clean out rucks. He's tall timber too.
But we may not get him for rugby. The cricket all rounder has already captained Queensland in the U/17s, been picked for U/19s and was in the National U/18 Talent squad camp last October. His older brother has represented at the junior level also.
whisperer
Good to hear a similar opinion from someone who knows what he is talking about - compared to my surmises.
I used to work in the US and I had a mate whose teenager had to go through all that training at high school for a few games on Friday night. Incidentally, he never had any ambitions to get a college football scholarship as he wasn't good enough, but the dad said the high school training discipline stood him in good stead to get through college when he was on his own.
You are dead right about the programmes the league guys have for their youngsters. A 18 or 19 year old league player is about 2 years ahead physically of his union counterpart, whatever his ethnicity, and you can see it when they run onto the park in their respective sports.
Somebody disagreed with me on this forum because he hadn't seen it himself in Queensland, but to be fair: he probably hadn't seen enough.
But I digress.
It's all the more reason why a young bloke like Big Rat shouldn't be treated the same as somebody who has been exposed to a heavy load of training over the years. He probably did little intense training before he reported to the Tahs a few months back. He's probably in the same situation as Winston Mafi (Alfi's brother) a few years ago.
He was 22 or something like that when he joined the Tahs, and had never lifted a weight in his life.
FOS
Yeah Warne has a wonderful cricket brain and had he been a company man he would have been the permanent ODI captain of Australia rather than just filling in, and maybe a chance to succeed Waugh as test captain. Not being so, and the spot not being vacant during the Waugh regime, it's just as well he didn't become permanent captain at any level as he would have ended up like his good mate Pietersen.
He's not the only good cricket captain that we've missed out over the years. Keith Miller should have got the job for the South African tour when Hassett retired. Likewise, after Chappell junior retired, Rod Marsh would have stayed in cricket had he got the job for a tour of the Windies, but it went to Hughes instead, and he hung up the boots.
Marsh was overlooked for a younger man who looked the part at the time but it would have been better had Marsh been at the helm during that time of mediocrity in Oz cricket.
Miller wasn't even picked for that tour of South Africa, originally, but it wasn't on merit. It had more to do with the malign hand of company man Bradman in the selection panel. Nor was it the first time that the great man intervened - he had done it earlier when he gave his opinion in the 1930s that 'Grum' Grimmett should not make another Ashes tour.
Since Marsh stopped playing his cricket brain has been utilised well at home and offshore, and as for Keith Miller: Richie Benaud said he was the best captain that he ever played under.
Buchanan? Only an ego masseur type coach like Duncan Fletcher could have got on with a Warne type player, just as he got on with Pietersen. Buchanan was strictly meat and potatoes and a 'did his job' type coach who probably got on with the bulk of the players during his tenure and didn't get bothered if a few stars didn't respect his knowledge.
Digressing, I know, but Buchanan must be proud of his two sons. I've mentioned Nicholas in my posts about the 2008 Oz Schools tournament, his selection for Oz Schools and his being a likely senior player in the second row because his handling skills in the lineout, his work rate and his not being afraid to clean out rucks. He's tall timber too.
But we may not get him for rugby. The cricket all rounder has already captained Queensland in the U/17s, been picked for U/19s and was in the National U/18 Talent squad camp last October. His older brother has represented at the junior level also.
whisperer
Good to hear a similar opinion from someone who knows what he is talking about - compared to my surmises.
Lee
Randwick were bitching last year that Ratu was being thrashed by the Tahs trainers, the trainers are running a very fine line between snapping a guy and getting fit and hard enough to play S14.
Link said it takes two years to load a up a new player which was one of the reasons Badger and Carraro were signed over more kids.
There was an article on a RL kid from the country that highlights this, father a test player, played country ball until 18 and decided he would tryout for an NRL side and really found he was physically well behind the kids in the programs.
Randwick were bitching last year that Ratu was being thrashed by the Tahs trainers, the trainers are running a very fine line between snapping a guy and getting fit and hard enough to play S14.
Link said it takes two years to load a up a new player which was one of the reasons Badger and Carraro were signed over more kids.
There was an article on a RL kid from the country that highlights this, father a test player, played country ball until 18 and decided he would tryout for an NRL side and really found he was physically well behind the kids in the programs.
fatprop said:
Knew what he was talking about.
It's why I worry about about kids who leave school and are playing Super14 footie literally 3 months later.
People say if they're old enough they're good enough and that was fine in the amateur days, but I don't think it is now. People also tell you about this player and that who has played Super rugby in the last 13 seasons the year after school and did fine, but there hasn't been so many of them as there are now.
Even if none of them get a serious injury because they played before their time I am absolutely sure that it will have a harmful effect at the back end of their rugby lives.
Even if 17 and 18 year olds don't get any structural body damage before they are 'loaded up' that affects them later, there are only so many tackles you can make in a rugby lifetime; so many rucks you can clean out and so many piles you can end up at the bottom of.
Their playing years should be cut and pasted a couple of years forward.
F
formeropenside
Guest
LG - agreed about Miller and Marsh, especially Marsh. I wonder if the mid-80's would have turned out a little differently if Marsh had been given the OZ captaincy ahead of Hughes. Then again, I remember that in G. Chappell's last season of 83-84 Hughes was captain, although I have no doubt Greg Chappell was running the show behind the scenes.
Hughes ultimately paid the price for being a Company man however, in those bittersweet post-Packer years. Probably Yallop should have stayed the ACB captain during the split, and Hughes allowed to develop over time. I can't see Marsh staying on much more than an additional 2 years, probably retiring after the 85 Ashes tour. Hughes would have been in a prime position then, had he kept form.
Hughes ultimately paid the price for being a Company man however, in those bittersweet post-Packer years. Probably Yallop should have stayed the ACB captain during the split, and Hughes allowed to develop over time. I can't see Marsh staying on much more than an additional 2 years, probably retiring after the 85 Ashes tour. Hughes would have been in a prime position then, had he kept form.
R
rugbywhisperer
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Yes he is currently I believe still at the Broncos and prior to the Reds was speed guru at the AIS/QAS. A very good (one of the best I have come across in T&F area) speed/strength/conditioning man. Didn't stay long at Red HQ.Noddy said:
A big problem wrt school leavers entering such a competitive environment such as S14 training is in fact the training. While many have performed admirably and with a fitness level above most, many (read probably 99%) have not got a clue what real hard disciplined training is about and have got through till then on natural ability.
All this is fine and would have been perfectly acceptable in the day, however with such massive training demands on these young bodies mostly loaded up in a very short transition time, the bodies just cannot take it and unfortunately the injuries received now are long term in that they usually affect areas which will never heal properly unless TOTAL R&R is maintained for a considerable time and unfortunately what young lad on a new S14 contract is going to rest and give another mug an even break.
I hark back to remarks I have made elsewhere regarding the state unions pushing these lads too soon into the senior game and it is just plain stupid what is being done as there are very very very few young players who have the long term training regime, discipline and physical capacity to handle the upchange and stay injury free for any reasonable period.
R
rugbywhisperer
Guest
I am currently (over the school holidays) taking care of 2.5 schoolboy players fitness training. I say 2.5 because one lad while he desperately wants a 1stXVGPS start this year just doesn't have the go forward and consequently doesn't turn up or skips vital points of the training.
Of the other two, one I have been training for a long long time and he has a training regime and ethis that would make most senior players envious, but then he has goals. He is a nationally ranked school sprinter, has a tremendous rugby brain and to top it off has the natural smarts. The other will or should be a rep player going forward. his brother is in a state academy knocking on S14 games this year.
The point to this is my training has been geared somewhat to build in the core strength and body conditioning to move forward in the future. By the time these two lads leave school, the senior work will not shock the body nor will it be beyond their capabilities.
Unfortunately in this competitive school breeding arena not many of the top schoolboy players are accostomed to this level of training - even during the season. These lads may not be the fittest this year, they may not be the strongest this year, but they will be there at the end and into the future. As I said, one is a sprinter, he will or should probaly be the fastest GPS player this and next year and he has the core strength to overcome most if not all hurdles placed in his way. But this level came at a price - long long term training, disciplines learned over many years. He does climb trees, surf and have fun as well but for him, training first (his choice). Others just don't have that discipline to put training above all else.
Of the other two, one I have been training for a long long time and he has a training regime and ethis that would make most senior players envious, but then he has goals. He is a nationally ranked school sprinter, has a tremendous rugby brain and to top it off has the natural smarts. The other will or should be a rep player going forward. his brother is in a state academy knocking on S14 games this year.
The point to this is my training has been geared somewhat to build in the core strength and body conditioning to move forward in the future. By the time these two lads leave school, the senior work will not shock the body nor will it be beyond their capabilities.
Unfortunately in this competitive school breeding arena not many of the top schoolboy players are accostomed to this level of training - even during the season. These lads may not be the fittest this year, they may not be the strongest this year, but they will be there at the end and into the future. As I said, one is a sprinter, he will or should probaly be the fastest GPS player this and next year and he has the core strength to overcome most if not all hurdles placed in his way. But this level came at a price - long long term training, disciplines learned over many years. He does climb trees, surf and have fun as well but for him, training first (his choice). Others just don't have that discipline to put training above all else.
Aussie D
Dick Tooth (41)
rugbywhisperer said:
RW, I have said the same thing many times myself about training. I read somewhere that the All Blacks implemented individual-based training programs in 1987, though I am not sure if they continued this program or the next coach scrapped it. In professional rugby I cannot believe that this is not the norm for all teams. This situation goes down through all the grades and into the kids as well - I remember the last year I playd before heading over to China I got a mate (who is an amatuer fitness trainer) to come along and have a run in thirsties with me and he couldn't believe our fitness training procedures (we were still doing star patterns). Rugby is a long way behind other sports in this country, and, even though it is outside his portfolio, hopefully Robbie Deans will instigate changes for the future of Oz rugby.
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