Wallabies v France 3rd Test - 21 June Sydney

[Pfitzy]

Fuck a duck, you don't need four fucking lineout jumpers to win a fucking game of rugby. Two will do if you're smart about it.

Stop being a grumpy old woman about it. Is anything about rugby good enough for you?

 

[barbarian]

Bewildering logic. If not now, when? Do you seriously think that we can be a significant force at the RWC if we have one lock who cannot be relied upon to win or defend, a lineout? Especially given that our likely 8 is not a lineout specialist, either.

On the basis of this series we are exactly the same with 3 competent jumpers as we are with 4.

And Skelton actually does provide a threat at the front of the lineout at the moment. Just because he isn't in the air it doesn't mean he can't be effective. And his expertise in disrupting mauls is also valuable.

I think talk of needing 4 or 5 expert jumpers in a lineout is a bit much. In 2003 we got to the final with 3 jumpers. Intelligent calling and accurate throwing are far more valuable IMO.

I am not saying Skelton should not try and become a jumping threat, but if that is not possible then it is not going to prevent us from competing at a World Cup.

<edit> And it takes Pfitzy ten words to say the same thing I did in 50. But my 50 had a certain flow to them, and didn't include the phrase 'fuck a duck', so I am claiming victory.
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[Braveheart81]

Bewildering logic. If not now, when? Do you seriously think that we can be a significant force at the RWC if we have one lock who cannot be relied upon to win or defend, a lineout? Especially given that our likely 8 is not a lineout specialist, either.

I do not care who helps Skelton with this crucial part of his game, but in the professional era surely somebody has to. All players work on their skills.

Goal kickers practice goal kicking, are you against that? Backlines practice moves. Are you against that?

The forward pack practices scrummaging. Are you against that?

Of course I'm not against any of that.

When a team runs their training sessions, where do you think they focus their attention? On the plays and players they use more in the game or on the things people need to improve?

I am sure Skelton is given some time at practice jumping in the lineout and but it would be much less than the time spent on the first, second and third choice jumpers.

Yes, I absolutely think we can be a significant force at the RWC with having one lock that isn't a strong lineout option. If he's in the side it will be because he brings other upsides to the team.

Skelton won more lineouts than Fardy and Palu on Saturday. If we need more variety than just throwing to Simmons we should throw to those options more.

If we're defending a lineout, Skelton won't be the main or secondary option to defend. In our current side, that would be Simmons and Fardy.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Barbarian we should remember though that part of South Africa's success in 2007 was attributed to not having a single player under 193cm, and therefore having 5 line out options.

The Reds showed in 2011 that you can get away with having a weakened set piece element providing you can just retain your own ball quickly 99% of the time providing you make up for it in other aspects around the park.

The question is whether we are sure we make up for it enough around the park against top quality opposition.

 

[barbarian]

Barbarian we should remember though that part of South Africa's success in 2007 was attributed to not having a single player under 193cm, and therefore having 5 line out options.

Of course. But it was just one part, and far from a defining one. Ultimately it is only one bloke who catches the ball, and we certainly did OK on Saturday with 3 aerial options.
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[Wilson]

Mckenzie has never been too afraid of taking a gamble and trying new things, even if they don't always work out (Genia at 5/8). With Skelton performing well on debut and 2 months before the next test he may start to work on different lineout arrangements and plays to make use of Skelton's size. If you'll forgive me for invoking the Deans name it might actually be time to revisit his 5 man lineouts with a big bopper taking the midfield hit up, now that we have the cattle to make it work.

As far as actual jumping is concerned it will take time for him to get experience, I'm not sure what it was like for him playing club rugby but given his size and initial league back ground he may not have been playing with players capable of lifting him for that long. It maybe that time away on the northern tour will help them drill down on it.

 

[Pfitzy]

<edit> And it takes Pfitzy ten words to say the same thing I did in 50. But my 50 had a certain flow to them, and didn't include the phrase 'fuck a duck', so I am claiming victory.
.

Claim all you like. You're still wrong.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The bloke is too big to lift properly - GET OVER IT. A consequence of lifting hime is that the lifters would be a little more worn out for their other job - like scrums and tackling.

Leave him on the ground - give him a ball or 2 at the front.

Can you imagine the big bloke hitting ther ground from lifters height. Skelton injured, ground rooted for both teams.

He had a terroific debut, doing HIS stuff. If its not broke don't "fix" it

 

[formerflanker]

Bewildering logic. If not now, when? Do you seriously think that we can be a significant force at the RWC if we have one lock who cannot be relied upon to win or defend, a lineout? Especially given that our likely 8 is not a lineout specialist, either.

I do not care who helps Skelton with this crucial part of his game, but in the professional era surely somebody has to. All players work on their skills.

Goal kickers practice goal kicking, are you against that? Backlines practice moves. Are you against that?

The forward pack practices scrummaging. Are you against that?

Jumping is not an individual skill - it requires a unit of 3 to do so properly. I am not sure that our lifters have the strength to assist him skyward.
Leg extension tests will probably tell you that Will hasn't the potential to elevate himself sufficiently to be an elite rugby line out jumper.
Perhaps it just needs more time for Will to be trained and for his lifters to build the appropriate strength and technique to lift the man mountain.
Maybe Will for number 2 in the RWC line outs?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I can live with Skelton not being a regular line out jumper if we have two or three blokes who are money on our own throw. With that said, the other parts of his game will have to be even better to make up for something that is in a lock's job description (we shouldn't pick a prop who cannot scrummage for instance). He did bloody well on the weekend and got us some tremendous go forward, as well as good clean out at the breakdown. That may be enough for now. I think the main thing will be to have among our two starters and one bench player all the major requirements covered.

 

[Train Without a Station]

TBH, I want to see his effective involvements off the ball more frequent. That will go a long way for his strengths making up for his weaknesses.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Yep. I think we can all agree though that the standard of our forward play has improved immensely and while it'll need to be better again for TRC it's at least headed in the right direction.

 

[Pfitzy]

And lets keep in mind it was his debut. People want players to come in and just be superman.

Only Hooper did that.

 

[Braveheart81]

If it was a debut fly half and they'd played 50 odd minutes and had a try and a try assist, there'd be universal praise for him...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I was a Skelton skeptic (at test level) and to an extent I still am (a little) but realistically couldn't have done more on debut than he did. Let's hope his development keeps going as it has been because I think he'll be an important player in the next 18 months.

 

[Scotty]

Since both Palu and Skelton aren't note jumpers, the best balance may be to have Skelton come off the bench, and start with Horwill or Carter.

It also gives us a big running impact forward at the end of the game, when we tend to loose both TPN and Palu.

 

[Scotty]

Oh and just read Bob Dywer's article. Let me summarise:

Wallabies good but can get better.
Players I don't like played well, so have to give them some small compliment.
Players that are non-Waratahs and below par are criticised (White, To'omua).
Players that are Waratahs and below par are ignored or glossed over.

 

[Lindommer]

Why am I not surprised at your comment, Scotty.

 

[Gnostic]

Skelton has great hands and can be effective at the lineout if used properly. IE at 2 he can take the ball with even a minor jump, if thrown correctly. He is an ideal lock to put at 2 as we don't want the quick ball from 2 usually therefore the best jumping assets can be placed at the back of the lineout where they can be most effectively used. I never made this argument in the case of Timani because he had such poor handling.

Different lineout rules in 1991 with no lifting at all and the lineouts a bit of a brawl, but consider who took the lineout for the try by McKenzie/Daley in the RWC final. Now consider, did he jump at all?

 

[ChargerWA]

Surprised how low badger is on the ranker >>>

Thought he was OK if not a little quiet. I'd have him above To'omua.