Italy v Australia, Sunday Nov 10 2013, Stadio Olimpico

[I like to watch]

He is comparing the loosies with the other impostors,because you specifically lay the blame with the loosies.
He was trying to demonstrate that you are blaming the wrong piggies.

 

[Slim 293]

Fardy has been exceptional........ possibly our best 6 since a 2008 Elsom.........

Unless he has a serious drop in form, is injured, or moved to lock (a viable option)........ the 6 jersey is his...........

 

[Braveheart81]

But don't you see. you are comparing our players actions to each other, which is not really a good look.
We should be comparing them to our past forwards, and other 1st ranked international sides.
Only then do you get a true picture of how good/poor they play.

2 of our 8 forwards don't exist in a bubble. The actions of the other forwards have a huge impact on their ability to do their primary jobs and how effective they are at them.

I don't think Hooper and Fardy are as good as say Pocock and Elsom in their primes, but they're the best players we currently have and in test matches where we've played well as a team, Hooper has been dominant (Fardy hasn't really had an opportunity to be dominant because we've lost all but two of the tests he's played).

How are these players meant to win the ball at the breakdown when half the time they're making the tackles that our tight five have missed of been ineffective in completing?

Turnovers happen far more frequently from dominant tackles. How many of those are we seeing each game? Instead we're seeing weak tackles which are allowing offloads (7 to 1 on the weekend) and extra metres for the opposition and quick, easy ruck ball.

We're not seeing the forest for the trees if we think the problem in our forward pack is because our backrow aren't doing enough at the breakdown.

The one area I'm heavily critical of our backrow (Hooper in particular) is in the scrum. They're breaking too early and not pushing hard enough. Several times our scrum held fine until the backrow stopped pushing and England put on a second shove against what was effectively 5 or 6 men.

 

[vidiot]

The one area I'm heavily critical of our backrow (Hooper in particular) is in the scrum. They're breaking too early and not pushing hard enough. Several times our scrum held fine until the backrow stopped pushing and England put on a second shove against what was effectively 5 or 6 men.

Had the same impression watching Scott Allens scrum sequence from Twickenham. The LHP (Slipper or Robinson) seems to be left exposed regularly when Hooper bails early. And even before that, it's the one area where Hooper doesn't play well above his weight.

I have this frustrating feeling that most of the individuals involved are theoretically capable of scrummaging well, but they are not, though some combination of coaching failure, not translating from training to games, or (and I think or hope this applies to Horwill) not being 100% fit and confident with recent injuries.

Link's usual gambit is to play away from weakness and to the teams strengths. But the only time we have made progress scrummaging is when we have aimed to dominate the opposition, and to relish the chance to do so.

 

[biggsy]

The one area I'm heavily critical of our backrow (Hooper in particular) is in the scrum. They're breaking too early and not pushing hard enough. Several times our scrum held fine until the backrow stopped pushing and England put on a second shove against what was effectively 5 or 6 men.

I totally agree. I'm not a fan of hooper at all for many reason.his decision making when pilfering and ruck entry is penalised far to much. And his impact on the scrum has been like this for awhile.

 

[wamberal]

Fardy has been exceptional.... possibly our best 6 since a 2008 Elsom...

Unless he has a serious drop in form, is injured, or moved to lock (a viable option).... the 6 jersey is his.....

Luke Jones is another very promising back-rower, Fardy at lock (with Skelton, I hope soon), Jones at 6, Poey at 7 and toss a coin, Higginbum at 8, maybe Quirk or Schatz, both toughnuts.

 

[daz]

After we got spanked by the Saffa's and the AB's, we went out and beat the Argies, first in Perth and then a good win in Argieland.

Lots of noise out of Wallabyland that the big win against Argentina indicated that the team was finally on the up and up - Confidence was high and we finally had the cohesion and across-the-board understanding of the gameplan we were looking for.

The very next game against the Poms we took 8 steps back.

I wonder if the same noises will be made should we beat the Italians? Hey look, we are on the up and up, etc.

If the Wallabies were a stock option, the peaks and troughs would discourage any investor.

It is certainly discouraging the emotional investment by this little black duck.

 

[Richo]

After we got spanked by the Saffa's and the AB's, we went out and beat the Argies, first in Perth and then a good win in Argieland.

Lots of noise out of Wallabyland that the big win against Argentina indicated that the team was finally on the up and up - Confidence was high and we finally had the cohesion and across-the-board understanding of the gameplan we were looking for.

The very next game against the Poms we took 8 steps back.

I wonder if the same noises will be made should we beat the Italians? Hey look, we are on the up and up, etc.

If the Wallabies were a stock option, the peaks and troughs would discourage any investor.

It is certainly discouraging the emotional investment by this little black duck.

Apart from that loss to the All Blacks in the middle there.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think the coach and the players need to try and make their comments more closely resemble the fans feelings and expectations (which are closer to reality than the spin presented by the team).

They've had enough dud performances following good performances now to realise that one good game doesn't completely turn the ship around.

After a good win, say something like they're relieved to get a win particularly during this very tough season and talk about the positive things they did well that they need to replicate next week. Mention that there are plenty of areas that need to improve and most of all they need to back up a good performance with another good performance next week.

So far it seems like they've expected that another good performance is almost a certainty following a good performance and what we've seen is almost completely the opposite.

The Wallabies really need to get back to basics in terms of trying to do the fundamental things well and then doing those things well again in the next game. Cutting down on unforced skill errors would have to be the most obvious thing that can be improved.

 

[hammertimethere]

Fardy has been exceptional.... possibly our best 6 since a 2008 Elsom...

Unless he has a serious drop in form, is injured, or moved to lock (a viable option).... the 6 jersey is his.....

I agree with Slim, though I'm now about to say something he won't like. If Higgers wasn't injured, Mowen would not be in the XV. Fardy at 6 and Higgers at 8 would be my go there.


In a perfect world I'd like to see fardy in the row, with Mowen, Higgers and Pocock in the back row.

 

[scaraby]

I agree with Slim, though I'm now about to say something he won't like. If Higgers wasn't injured, Mowen would not be in the XV. Fardy at 6 and Higgers at 8 would be my go there.


In a perfect world I'd like to see fardy in the row, with Mowen, Higgers and Pocock in the back row.

its a better balance but still not sure Mowen is consistent enough and Higgers is a better 6. Cliffy will be first choice 8 if fit but he needs a back up now to train. Modern number 8s need to be big quick and hard in contact Higgers is too wide in attack and is better suited to 6..maybe Fardy is an 8 in the making or is there a young quick bigun around somewhere?...

 

[Dumbledore]

Fardy has been exceptional.... possibly our best 6 since a 2008 Elsom...

Unless he has a serious drop in form, is injured, or moved to lock (a viable option).... the 6 jersey is his.....

Oh come on, you can use all the ellipses you like but he hasn't been all that. He's been good, even very good a couple of times, but let's not get carried away. The only way you can say he's been exceptional is if you consider it exceptional for an Australian forward to fulfil the requirements of his role.

 

[Scotty]

2 of our 8 forwards don't exist in a bubble. The actions of the other forwards have a huge impact on their ability to do their primary jobs and how effective they are at them.

I don't think Hooper and Fardy are as good as say Pocock and Elsom in their primes, but they're the best players we currently have and in test matches where we've played well as a team, Hooper has been dominant (Fardy hasn't really had an opportunity to be dominant because we've lost all but two of the tests he's played).

How are these players meant to win the ball at the breakdown when half the time they're making the tackles that our tight five have missed of been ineffective in completing?

Turnovers happen far more frequently from dominant tackles. How many of those are we seeing each game? Instead we're seeing weak tackles which are allowing offloads (7 to 1 on the weekend) and extra metres for the opposition and quick, easy ruck ball.

We're not seeing the forest for the trees if we think the problem in our forward pack is because our backrow aren't doing enough at the breakdown.

The one area I'm heavily critical of our backrow (Hooper in particular) is in the scrum. They're breaking too early and not pushing hard enough. Several times our scrum held fine until the backrow stopped pushing and England put on a second shove against what was effectively 5 or 6 men.

Actually I think a 7's turnovers often occur when the attacking player falls forward over the defensive player. In Australia's case this can happen after a half break by the opposition, or if a player like Fa'aingaa or TPN via a ankle biting tackle.

In the all blacks case this often happens when the tackler somehow manages to alway land on the wrong side thus hampering the support.

Dominant tackles more lead to turnovers from counter rucking.

Fact is that Hooper just hasn't been competing at the breakdown and he needs to vastly improve this area to help his pack out just as much as they need to help him. Reading between the lines, Link also things Mowen is more of an on baller - but again he is ineffective at both this role or at dominating contact.

 

[Braveheart81]

Actually I think a 7's turnovers often occur when the attacking player falls forward over the defensive player. In Australia's case this can happen after a half break by the opposition, or if a player like Fa'aingaa or TPN via a ankle biting tackle.

In the all blacks case this often happens when the tackler somehow manages to alway land on the wrong side thus hampering the support.

Dominant tackles more lead to turnovers from counter rucking.

Fact is that Hooper just hasn't been competing at the breakdown and he needs to vastly improve this area to help his pack out just as much as they need to help him. Reading between the lines, Link also things Mowen is more of an on baller - but again he is ineffective at both this role or at dominating contact.

I don't disagree with your point regarding the grass cutter style tackle, but I also think we've been seeing very little of this either.

In either instance, you're both bringing the player to ground quickly and not in the way they choose.

These are the situations where turnovers happen and we're getting very few opportunities for these because in almost every situation, the opposition ball runner is winning the tackling contest and going to ground in the way they choose.

 

[Slim 293]

Oh come on, you can use all the ellipses you like but he hasn't been all that. He's been good, even very good a couple of times, but let's not get carried away. The only way you can say he's been exceptional is if you consider it exceptional for an Australian forward to fulfil the requirements of his role.

The raw stats alone would show he's far exceeding the 'requirements of his role'..........

His work rate and effectiveness puts the rest of our forwards to shame...........

 

[Dumbledore]

The raw stats alone would show he's far exceeding the 'requirements of his role'....

His work rate and effectiveness puts the rest of our forwards to shame.....

Link to the stats? We barely have any reliable base stats at all, let alone anything even resembling advanced metrics to give us a properly decent idea of performance. I don't think he's been anything special to be honest, he'd be a way down the order for a World XV. I'd say he's been good without being exceptional.

 

[Brumbieman]

One thing that is very evident in those highlights in the work of Palu in each scrum. Yet apparently he's shit.

Really?


He only seems to be packing at 8 in a third of those scrums!

 

[Joe Blow]

Our back row have been pretty average as a unit with Fardy and Hooper playing well individually most of the time.
It would be hard to argue with a backrow of Higgers, Pocock and Palu being far superior.
I would like to see Gill starting at 7 this week. His set piece and breakdown work is way better than Hoopers and this could serve to galvanize our pack. Pococks game regularly does so.
Although Hooper has been recognized as the Wallabies best in the last 12 months I think he is lacking in some fundamental areas that have a detrimental effect on the way our pack performs as a unit on the whole.
Mowen lacks impact and is an honest toiler at best at the highest level. Fardy is a very good workman like 6 whose game would be taken up a level if he was given the support of Pocock and Higgers or Palu. He is a perfect 5/6 bench option when all are fit and available.

 

[Brumby Runner]

its a better balance but still not sure Mowen is consistent enough and Higgers is a better 6. Cliffy will be first choice 8 if fit but he needs a back up now to train. Modern number 8s need to be big quick and hard in contact Higgers is too wide in attack and is better suited to 6..maybe Fardy is an 8 in the making or is there a young quick bigun around somewhere?.

Higgers played much tighter at 8 for the Rebels this year before his injury, and quite substantially better than any other 8 going around in Aus.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The team I'd like to see against Italy to give some of tired looking players a rest is:

Robbo Faainga Ryan

Mowen Simmons Douglas Gill

McCalman

White Foley

Tomane Lealiifano Kuridrani F'Sautia

Folau

Bench : Slipper, Kepu, TPN, Horwill, Dennis, Phipps, Cooper, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)