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Train Without a Station
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I disagree Scrubber. With Flatley's retirement due to repeated concussions, we'd pinned our hopes heavily on Barnes at 10 and 12 for us. He was a consistent starter for us.
Reds 2015
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Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Agree and that just confirms that sometimes loyalty to one's State seems to come second to the bucks and opportunity.
It was easy before the professional era. Players gebnerally had real employment and there were no dollars to entice away. Suppose the odd opportunity made for some to move.
It was easy before the professional era. Players gebnerally had real employment and there were no dollars to entice away. Suppose the odd opportunity made for some to move.
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Redsfan
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I think that you are simply defining opportunity as "starting XV gametime". You've created parameters to your argument that could include just about every player leaving for any possible reason.
Sometimes players stay as a second-choice player if they believe that the program is developing them further. Sometimes they even sign on with a team to ride the pine when they could be starting elsewhere.
Ben Lucas, James Hanson (I'm sure there are others at other provinces, and even at the Reds) for example could have signed elsewhere (Rebels and Force at least), but they saw the Reds as providing them with a program that gave them the opportunity to develop further.
That's the kind of opportunity that you want to be attracting players with, not the opportunity to get a guaranteed starting spot that they won't have to fight for. That's a lack of depth and development.
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Train Without a Station
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Well starting XV game time is opportunity. Players stay in Australia to play for the Wallabies. They need to be on the park to do so. If a player feels he is better, but doesn't get rewarded it's natural they will look elsewhere.
I haven't created parameters to include just about every possibly reason for a player leaving.
I'm saying how many players where we were giving them the opportunity to showcase their talent to Wallaby selectors, and were paying them what other teams were willing to pay them, have we lost.
It's my understanding we have lost 2. Stephen Moore in 2005 and Berrick Barnes in 2009. May I add that neither achieved the success they sought in their new environments, and that the Reds have since then. Also both sunk to deep lows in their times, just showing how quickly things can change.
Perhaps we could include Jono Lance. But as a player who identifies himself strongly as a New South Welshman, was this just him returning home?
We have lost players we wanted to keep, but these have been unavoidable as part of professionalism. We wanted to keep Nathan Sharpe but my understanding is the Force offered more money as with Drew Mitchel. Please correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not certain of this. We probably wanted to keep Tai McIassac, Richard Brown and others too, but the Force offered the opportunity to be a starting player.
I haven't created parameters to include just about every possibly reason for a player leaving.
I'm saying how many players where we were giving them the opportunity to showcase their talent to Wallaby selectors, and were paying them what other teams were willing to pay them, have we lost.
It's my understanding we have lost 2. Stephen Moore in 2005 and Berrick Barnes in 2009. May I add that neither achieved the success they sought in their new environments, and that the Reds have since then. Also both sunk to deep lows in their times, just showing how quickly things can change.
Perhaps we could include Jono Lance. But as a player who identifies himself strongly as a New South Welshman, was this just him returning home?
We have lost players we wanted to keep, but these have been unavoidable as part of professionalism. We wanted to keep Nathan Sharpe but my understanding is the Force offered more money as with Drew Mitchel. Please correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not certain of this. We probably wanted to keep Tai McIassac, Richard Brown and others too, but the Force offered the opportunity to be a starting player.
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Train Without a Station
Guest
My point is players in fact don't just leave because a program is shit. In fact unless there is a difference in money or opportunity, players generally don't move.
2014 is not but are some deep seated and long term problem with the Reds structure. It's an immediate performance issues, which can be resolved with replacing some of the coaching staff and with the appointment of the right staff, this has been historically turned around from bottom scrapers to finalists in 2 seasons.
2014 is not but are some deep seated and long term problem with the Reds structure. It's an immediate performance issues, which can be resolved with replacing some of the coaching staff and with the appointment of the right staff, this has been historically turned around from bottom scrapers to finalists in 2 seasons.
Were their decisions good ones though?
Hanson earned a Wallaby call up in 2012 but is now behind Nathan Charles. Sharing the game time at the Reds with Saia Fainga'a has probably contributed to a drop in the pecking order.
Ben Lucas has been a Mr Fixit for the Reds and due to lots of injuries has generally got a reasonable amount of opportunity. If he'd made the decision to go to the Force or Rebels he could have potentially been the starting 10 for the last two seasons at either side.
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Redsfan
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Hmmm. I think that we are arguing slightly different points, and that is that we each seem to be concerned with opposite aspects of player movement.
What I am saying is that the provincial programs need to (aspire to) be more than just stepping-stones to higher honours. If they are, and players see rugby programs as a means to improve themselves as a player first and foremost, then we'd likely see them stay/come to the Reds. We really didn't leverage our success very well when it came to recruitment.
I'm not saying that players leave mainly because programs are shit (this does happen rarely, as you pointed out). You (TWAS) are the one who brought up departing players, this discussion started looking at recruitment of new players.
What I am saying is that the provincial programs need to (aspire to) be more than just stepping-stones to higher honours. If they are, and players see rugby programs as a means to improve themselves as a player first and foremost, then we'd likely see them stay/come to the Reds. We really didn't leverage our success very well when it came to recruitment.
I'm not saying that players leave mainly because programs are shit (this does happen rarely, as you pointed out). You (TWAS) are the one who brought up departing players, this discussion started looking at recruitment of new players.
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Train Without a Station
Guest
I do understand that and I addressed that originally. Which goes back to the point that recruitment of external talent isn't something QLD or NSW have needed to do and should remain that way.
Maximising our talent from within is the key and the challenge.
Daniel Braid has probably been the best foreign recruit in the Australian conference (Potgeiter and Delve would have to be the next 2 in my view). The state or our program didn't affect that.
Most importantly, provincial programs being seen as stepping stones to higher honours in the only realistic way to look at it. Why do you want to improve themselves as a player?
On Braveheart's point I think Hanson is an unfair comparison against talent staying as a reserve over opportunity. He was a Wallaby and would have been last year but was injured. If he had stayed 3rd choice Hooker throughout 2013 which injury prevented he likely would be ahead of Nathan Charles today.
Maximising our talent from within is the key and the challenge.
Daniel Braid has probably been the best foreign recruit in the Australian conference (Potgeiter and Delve would have to be the next 2 in my view). The state or our program didn't affect that.
Most importantly, provincial programs being seen as stepping stones to higher honours in the only realistic way to look at it. Why do you want to improve themselves as a player?
On Braveheart's point I think Hanson is an unfair comparison against talent staying as a reserve over opportunity. He was a Wallaby and would have been last year but was injured. If he had stayed 3rd choice Hooker throughout 2013 which injury prevented he likely would be ahead of Nathan Charles today.
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Train Without a Station
Guest
Listen I'm not sitting here saying it's al good in the hood. I just think we need to peel back the hyperbole with the sentiment like "oh my god no decent players will want to come to QLD because we are so bad!"
I say that because the resurgence of QLD, ACT and NSW in the past has generally not been built on big name recruitment. I'd argue NSW are the first to do this with Folau and Beale, though still don't consider these two players alone to be critical to their success.
Generally the resurgence has been a part of improving the existing groups and astutely picking up quality talent that has no other options. Do you think it's just a coincidence that in their Grand Final seasons, the Reds and the Brumbies had the lowest player salaries of all teams?
I say that because the resurgence of QLD, ACT and NSW in the past has generally not been built on big name recruitment. I'd argue NSW are the first to do this with Folau and Beale, though still don't consider these two players alone to be critical to their success.
Generally the resurgence has been a part of improving the existing groups and astutely picking up quality talent that has no other options. Do you think it's just a coincidence that in their Grand Final seasons, the Reds and the Brumbies had the lowest player salaries of all teams?
Stumpy
Allen Oxlade (6)
Hey everyone,
With the Reds season unfortunately being over, there is still plenty of great games to be played in Queensland Premier Rugby. Brothers take on GPS in an old boys day clash.
While Souths v University (Chipsy Wood), Sunnybank v Easts (Oldmac Oval) and Norths play their last game of the year against Bond (Hugh Courtney Oval).
Sully & co. This is for the readers who don't follow the QPR 14 thread.
With the Reds season unfortunately being over, there is still plenty of great games to be played in Queensland Premier Rugby. Brothers take on GPS in an old boys day clash.
While Souths v University (Chipsy Wood), Sunnybank v Easts (Oldmac Oval) and Norths play their last game of the year against Bond (Hugh Courtney Oval).
Sully & co. This is for the readers who don't follow the QPR 14 thread.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Jeez Stumpy - get on the right tread
Eyes and Ears
Bob Davidson (42)
I am pretty sure Chris Latham might contradict your point.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
Or in recent times, Weeks, McDuling, etc? Or even "unwanted" NSW players, Houston, Robinson, Turner? There are, of course, a lot more, but that's off the top of my head with a few seconds thought. You can go back further to, say, Valentine, or back further to Latham, or even further back to Cordingley, or Foley, or even Nathan Spooner or Matt Pini (sorry).
There's a long list from the Brumbies, too.
There's a long list from the Brumbies, too.
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Train Without a Station
Guest
Robinson wasn't recruited from NSW. He was playing overseas. Anyway the point is he was an astute recruitment. Much like Turner. Houston also.
McDuling I know is from Sydney. Was he actively pursued by the Reds. I have a feeling we did make the effort to draw him away from the Waratahs.
Also was Weeks in any Waratahs system when picked up by the Reds? He played for the Fleet in the ARC but I wonder if he was another example of an astute recruitment of an unwanted player.
McDuling I know is from Sydney. Was he actively pursued by the Reds. I have a feeling we did make the effort to draw him away from the Waratahs.
Also was Weeks in any Waratahs system when picked up by the Reds? He played for the Fleet in the ARC but I wonder if he was another example of an astute recruitment of an unwanted player.
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tranquility
Guest
Miles McCaffery is playing premier rugby in Brisbane. Is there a reason for this? is he studying up there? and will he be of super rugby standard once he matures?
Sorry if wrong thread.
Cheers
Sorry if wrong thread.
Cheers
Miles is studying medicine at Griffith Uni on the GC and plays for Sunnybank. He is in great form but I can't see him becoming a professional player. Of corse this is said with no knowledge of what he wants and he may get picked up for an NRC team.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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tranquility
Guest
Thanks mate.
TheBigDog
Nev Cottrell (35)
I mentioned this over on the Premier Rugby thread that I wouldn't be surprised over the next week if we hear of a few more players who have left the Reds due to their notable absences at their respective clubs. I think most of the blokes heading over to Europe will be in cotton wool and heading off in early August or sooner. I reckon their might be a couple more relatively big names to go.
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