Reds 2022

[Adam84]

Reference this ‘long term commitment reds have made to Thorn’. He is only signed for another 12 months.

Yes any coach selection needs to be done properly, but any talk of a QPR coach like Mick Heenan as Reds coach is off the mark I think, yes he is an experienced QPR coach, and successful at the best resourced club in the competition. Massive step up from that to Super Rugby and coaching the Reds though. You want someone who has at least coached professionally and across a variety of competitions I believe.

 

[Sword of Justice]

Kalani Thomas has been very strong off the bench this year, and especially in the last few weeks. I'd hope to see him with a few more minutes next week (assuming it is not close [I don't think that's a wild assumption]) and potentially starting a few games next year with Tate resting every once and a while.

I think McDermott has been trying to take it far too much all on his shoulders since the NZ games began. The Reds cannot keep expecting guys like him, Tupou, McReight to just play close to every minute of every game, even when those games are in the balance and not expect diminishing returns in the long run.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Reference this ‘long term commitment reds have made to Thorn’. He is only signed for another 12 months.

Yes any coach selection needs to be done properly, but any talk of a QPR coach like Mick Heenan as Reds coach is off the mark I think, yes he is an experienced QPR coach, and successful at the best resourced club in the competition. Massive step up from that to Super Rugby and coaching the Reds though. You want someone who has at least coached professionally and across a variety of competitions I believe.

Darren Coleman might have put doubts to that. Not close enough to say mick Henan the answer but if consistent record of success in club rugby at least worthy of consideratIon.

 

[Adam84]

Darren Coleman might have put doubts to that. Not close enough to say mick Henan the answer but if consistent record of success in club rugby at least worthy of consideratIon.

Darren Coleman has much more experience then just the Shute Shield though, he has coached professionally in 3 other countries before taking the Tahs role.

Coleman also had success across multiple SS teams, including those which aren’t traditional heavy weights. Heenan never won with GPS before taking the UQ role.

 

[PhilClinton]

Darren Coleman might have put doubts to that. Not close enough to say mick Henan the answer but if consistent record of success in club rugby at least worthy of consideratIon.

Coleman at least coached professional players in a full time professional environment before. The QPR is very much amateur.

Also I don’t believe Heenan has even indicated, at least publicly that he wants to coach professionally.

Even if he did want the job, do we really think it’s best throwing an amateur coach to the wolves? The Reds could be in for a hard slog these next few years. There are a number of key players particularly in the backline who are either going to retire, leave or are going through a form regression. That won’t be easy to navigate.

 

[dru]

There needs to be a pathway for local coaches, if that means Heenan then there should be at least a generic plan. Wasn't he coaching NRC?

 

[PhilClinton]

There needs to be a pathway for local coaches, if that means Heenan then there should be at least a generic plan. Wasn't he coaching NRC?

Yep he did for a season or two, was at least on the staff for a while.

The QLD NRC teams were pretty well run though, the QRU pretty much took care of it all and they appointed various QPR coaches to the teams, more like a panel of coaches but I guess one was the ‘head coach’.

A cautionary tale in that regard would be Shane Arnold. Had been a good QPR coach, got some time in the NRC and then was appointed Reds attack coach, pretty much thrown to the wolves during a shit period of Reds rugby and failed. He’s now back coaching GPS the last few years and again doing very well at QPR level.

 

[Adam84]

Jason Gilmore would sit higher then Heenan as far as developing coaches go IMO. Hasn’t coached as long as Heenan but has coached at a higher level and in professional environments.

 

[PhilClinton]

If the Reds were genuinely looking to transition Thorn out (and I don’t think there is any public evidence that is happening) they could possibly look at someone like Ben McCormack who is apparently returning to Brisbane next year.

Had success with Brothers and then moved south and was a pretty handy coach at the Warringah Rats, currently at Randwick. He is only 36 or so though, maybe needs a couple more winters.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Coleman at least coached professional players in a full time professional environment before. The QPR is very much amateur.

Also I don’t believe Heenan has even indicated, at least publicly that he wants to coach professionally.

Even if he did want the job, do we really think it’s best throwing an amateur coach to the wolves? The Reds could be in for a hard slog these next few years. There are a number of key players particularly in the backline who are either going to retire, leave or are going through a form regression. That won’t be easy to navigate.

If wanted to coach professionally probably assistant coach role might help but didn’t thorn go from coaching nrc to reds head coach as don’t recall him being a pro coach before head coach gig at reds.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yep he did for a season or two, was at least on the staff for a while.

The QLD NRC teams were pretty well run though, the QRU pretty much took care of it all and they appointed various QPR coaches to the teams, more like a panel of coaches but I guess one was the ‘head coach’.

A cautionary tale in that regard would be Shane Arnold. Had been a good QPR coach, got some time in the NRC and then was appointed Reds attack coach, pretty much thrown to the wolves during a shit period of Reds rugby and failed. He’s now back coaching GPS the last few years and again doing very well at QPR level.

I think like the entrepreneur who failed with his first business does not mean he can’t take the leanings and be successful in his next business. Same for coaches as might not be successful with there first pro gig but don’t write them off as they can learn from it and grow.

I think that is part of the pathway for coaches being out in place. I mean look at Gilmore who was defence coach for tahs and last season tahs defence woeful and worse in super rugby. He made some changes in learning from it and now tahs have one of the best defences.

 

[Wilson]

Reference this ‘long term commitment reds have made to Thorn’. He is only signed for another 12 months.

Yes any coach selection needs to be done properly, but any talk of a QPR coach like Mick Heenan as Reds coach is off the mark I think, yes he is an experienced QPR coach, and successful at the best resourced club in the competition. Massive step up from that to Super Rugby and coaching the Reds though. You want someone who has at least coached professionally and across a variety of competitions I believe.

The long term commitment I'm talking about is the way they've talked about the coaching strategy and the desire to move away from the reactionary model they've talked about since first signing Thorn:

Snapping a damning five-season cycle of failure will only be possible with long term-structures not the instability of four head coaches and myriad staff changes over that period.

Queensland Rugby Union chairman Jeff Miller said the alarm bells had been heeded over short-term fixes and pale results since the Reds last made the finals in 2013.

“We want Brad Thorn as a 10-year head coach but it’s up to us to create the right high-performance environment for him to want to,” Miller said.

I mention it because if they're keeping to it I really doubt they'd sack him after one season of results below expectations (but largely equal with the year before).

As far as Heenan goes, I didn't mean to suggest he would be the top candidate if we change coaches, only the top option from QPR. I don't necessarily agree that a QPR coach without prior professional experience couldn't work, but the structure would probably need to be different, probably with an experienced Director of Rugby/Coaching sitting over the top to guide them through into pro rugby coaching. It's arguably something Thorn should've had. If you were to go down that route right now you'd probably end up with Scott Johnson in the role which could work or be a disaster. If you do it in a seasons time there will be a hell of a lot more options for experienced coaches to potentially choose from either as head coach or director.

I do think there needs to a path for experienced coaches from QPR to step up to the reds, probably beyond just the usual year or two stint as an assistant. That may be going to the US/Japan/Lower pro grades in Europe, but if that's how we expect them to get that experience I think we need to find a way to facilitate it, rather than just telling them to go find it themselves.

I do want to stress the only coaching path I'm advocating here is for Thorn to get the 2023 season to prove if he is still good enough, and then if he's not there should be a full and proper appointment process that considers all the options.

 

[PhilClinton]

If wanted to coach professionally probably assistant coach role might help but didn’t thorn go from coaching nrc to reds head coach as don’t recall him being a pro coach before head coach gig at reds.

I think he was Reds performance and S&C or something for a season, but I could be wrong.

 

[liquor box]

The long term commitment I'm talking about is the way they've talked about the coaching strategy and the desire to move away from the reactionary model they've talked about since first signing Thorn:


I mention it because if they're keeping to it I really doubt they'd sack him after one season of results below expectations (but largely equal with the year before).

As far as Heenan goes, I didn't mean to suggest he would be the top candidate if we change coaches, only the top option from QPR. I don't necessarily agree that a QPR coach without prior professional experience couldn't work, but the structure would probably need to be different, probably with an experienced Director of Rugby/Coaching sitting over the top to guide them through into pro rugby coaching. It's arguably something Thorn should've had. If you were to go down that route right now you'd probably end up with Scott Johnson in the role which could work or be a disaster. If you do it in a seasons time there will be a hell of a lot more options for experienced coaches to potentially choose from either as head coach or director.

I do think there needs to a path for experienced coaches from QPR to step up to the reds, probably beyond just the usual year or two stint as an assistant. That may be going to the US/Japan/Lower pro grades in Europe, but if that's how we expect them to get that experience I think we need to find a way to facilitate it, rather than just telling them to go find it themselves.

I do want to stress the only coaching path I'm advocating here is for Thorn to get the 2023 season to prove if he is still good enough, and then if he's not there should be a full and proper appointment process that considers all the options.

I don't think this year has really been below realistic expectations, it is below what we as Reds fans want but why would we suddenly be able to beat NZ teams who are a class above with essentially the same team and coaching set up? If we were able to improve then why wouldn't the NZ teams also be able to have the same growth in skills?

The unfortunate situation is that we simply do not play the style of game to beat NZ teams, but Thorn has us as arguably the best Australian side proven by results against the other Australian teams over the past three seasons.

Are we satisfied as being the best Australian side, or do we risk not being the best in the country to have a slight chance of being able to beat a NZ team maybe twice in the season, or three times in a great year?

 

[Silverado]

I think he was Reds performance and S&C or something for a season, but I could be wrong.

Not a good endorsement this year

 

[dru]

I don't think this year has really been below realistic expectations, it is below what we as Reds fans want but why would we suddenly be able to beat NZ teams who are a class above with essentially the same team and coaching set up? If we were able to improve then why wouldn't the NZ teams also be able to have the same growth in skills?

The unfortunate situation is that we simply do not play the style of game to beat NZ teams, but Thorn has us as arguably the best Australian side proven by results against the other Australian teams over the past three seasons.

Are we satisfied as being the best Australian side, or do we risk not being the best in the country to have a slight chance of being able to beat a NZ team maybe twice in the season, or three times in a great year?

It seems below Thorn's own stated expectations.

But the W/L ratio is not really the source of disappointment. Atrocious kicking game, no real exit ability, ruck work being dominated by the opposition, a line out that seems manned by Boy Scouts, ineffective engagement of the undoubtable strike-threats that are available.

Injuries have certainly knocked us around and this definitely lines up a lot of this, but honestly, what game plan? What is the intended structure? It is proving to be not just losing rugby but tedious rugby. I'm finding it a challenge to convince myself that the cause, or even a key cause, is the injury toll. Just looks like there is more than that happening.

 

[liquor box]

Not a good endorsement this year

Do you think some people are just more prone to injuries, or is it all about the S&C Coach?

I would have thought the S&C coach can only work with the players he is given, if a club signs players that have injury plagued careers then he can only do so much.

Other issues can also be the head coach not allowing enough rest for a player to recover properly. Tupou had an incredible run without missing many games when you consider how many minutes he plays per year for both the Reds and Wallabies, I worry that McReight and Wilson may be playing too many minutes for the Reds that could result in injury to them both just from overuse.

 

[liquor box]

It seems below Thorn's own stated expectations.

But the W/L ratio is not really the source of disappointment. Atrocious kicking game, no real exit ability, ruck work being dominated by the opposition, a line out that seems manned by Boy Scouts, ineffective engagement of the undoubtable strike-threats that are available.

Injuries have certainly knocked us around and this definitely lines up a lot of this, but honestly, what game plan? What is the intended structure? It is proving to be not just losing rugby but tedious rugby. I'm finding it a challenge to convince myself that the cause, or even a key cause, is the injury toll. Just looks like there is more than that happening.

I agree that our skills are just not up to it, and he does not seem to be adaptable in his game planning.

The difference is that a lack of skill can be overcome by dogged determination in Australia. You know that the other Aussie teams will eventually drop the ball or make some other mistake that will give you an opportunity if you can stay within a try of winning, if we drop the ball there is a slight chance that an Aussie team will capitalise in the error and our poor kicking game doesn't matter against Aussie sides as they will just kick the same poor quality kicks back our way.

NZ teams score off our mistakes, when they make an error we are not quick enough to take advantage.

I often wonder if our players who need a specialist skill set have appropriate training after the regular team training sessions to actually improve. We accept mediocrity from talented athletes because they were good enough in their high school days to get noticed.

Have any Reds players who had a lacking skill ever improved? A player who cant kick very well becoming competent, a player with a suspect left to right pass becoming better or a line out thrower and jumping team improving?

Something is lacking and I wonder if it is actually the players attitude to not wanting to put in their own time to improve as they feel secure in their current setting.

 

[LearningCurve]

I agree that our skills are just not up to it, and he does not seem to be adaptable in his game planning.

I often wonder if our players who need a specialist skill set have appropriate training after the regular team training sessions to actually improve. We accept mediocrity from talented athletes because they were good enough in their high school days to get noticed.

Have any Reds players who had a lacking skill ever improved? A player who cant kick very well becoming competent, a player with a suspect left to right pass becoming better or a line out thrower and jumping team improving?

Something is lacking and I wonder if it is actually the players attitude to not wanting to put in their own time to improve as they feel secure in their current setting.

Are the players with weak skills being asked to improve though? You would expect that the coaching team have identified areas for improvement and given those players the specific requirements - what needs to be improved, how it can be improved, when it will be improved by; and set up the skills coaching to do that. Then it comes down to the player putting in the work to improve. Some players will take it upon themselves to seek improvement and to find out where they are lacking, but if the coaches are quite okay with where the players are at then they are not being pushed to improve. You can understand when someone is playing out of position, but when they are in their best position as a professional athlete they should be able to demonstrate the skills required at that level - whether it is throwing into the lineout, scrummaging, passing on both sides etc.

 

[Sully]

I hope something is happening in the background because this is a pretty sad indictment for the Reds. Letting another long term player go with no acknowledgement of their service.

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