The Wallabies Thread

[TSR]

Early this year, I suggested Ready should be the next picked hooker, in front of Hansen, if TPN wasn't available (he was injured at the time). It became irrelevant when TPN came back, but in hindsight I think it would have been a mistake.

I can understand why the England series & super rugby season has heightened the calls for change - but, for mine, new talent has to be introduced more gradually and, it seems to me that Cheika is working on that.

I have always thought that the best way to bring through talent is to give them a glimpse of the future (by some initial contact and inclusion in wider training squads) but always with a clear message as to what their 'work ons' are and to go away, work hard, perserver and be patient. Don't pamper them or rush them through. Make them smash the door down. I often wonder how James O'Connor would have turned out if this approach was taken (pure speculation, I know.)

On the one hand it is a rather old school approach, but I note it is still used very successfully by the Qld State of Origin side and the All Blacks.

I feel that guys like Hodge are making all the right moves and, if managed correctly, will have every chance of becoming long term Wallabies - but the assertion they will be an immediate improvement on the stays quo is not necessarily a correct one and conflicts with the general approach of successful teams.

The short term fix here is more likely to be the re-introduction of Giteau, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Genia than Hodge, Robertson & Ready.

 

[wamberal]

There was an article in the Hurled talking about succession planning amongst our senior coaches.


According to the article, Bernie Larkham is Chubby's anointed successor.


Really? WTF has he achieved as a coach?


And what about Laurie Fisher?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Is Ruan Smith Australian eligible?

If not, he surely isn't getting any closer by going to play in Japan as that would reset the residency qualification period.

Good question, but as far as I know he is. He was with the Western Force in 2012 and then the Brumbies from 2013 to 2015 before going to Japan for the first time to play. And that was after he had lived in Brisbane for quite some time. Think he would satisfy any eligibility criterion, including the Speight temporary absence issue that has so dented Henry's international aspirations.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think there have been some good points made about the introduction of new players to the Wallabies' squad and playing side this year. Those mentioned, like Ready, Robertson, Arnold, Coleman, Powell, Kerevi and Hodge etc, will add to the strength of the Wallabies in their respective positions over coming years.

My bitch is about the No 10 spot where despite the apparent absence of local competition to Foley for well over a year now, we still are in the situation where overseas based players are being brought in to shore up matters, which will just exacerbate an already unsatisfactory situation by delaying the development of younger players who will likely be in the mix for selection next year or the year after.

Players like Mason and Jooste for the 10 spot. Not that they should start now, but we would get more long term benefit from them being part of the squad now than we'll get from players like Giteau, Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) come RWC 2019 time.

For the time being, I'd be happy with To'omua to be the back up No 10 for this year's RC, and I'd especially like to see To'omua/Kerevi as the 10/12 combination at some time during the RC. Next in line for the 10 spot, when fit, would be Lance. The biggest missed opportunity imo has been not selecting Matt To'omua at 10 for both the Brumbies and the Wallabies during this year (injuries aside).

Generally, I'd like us not to have to rely on players who have opted to play overseas, but to put more time and effort into identifying and developing the next generation coming through the Aus Super Rugby sides. Which leaves me with a conundrum on the wings where we are also pretty sparse on the ground for test standard players atm. I really do think that Rob Horne doesn't fill the bill as a test match winger anymore, while there is debate about whether DHP ought to be at 15 instead of on the wing. I can therefore see some merit in either AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Mitchell filling one spot in this year's RC pending the eligibilty of Naivalu, but it might also be reasonable to put Moahan on the wing until someone better comes along (eg, Naivalu or Speight).

So, the backline I'd like to see during the RC would be 9 Genia, 10 To'omua, 11 Morahan, 12 Kerevi, 13 Folau, 14 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), 15 DHP.

When Foley plays 10, To'omua to 12. When Naivalu becomes available, in for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

 

[TSR]

I think there have been some good points made about the introduction of new players to the Wallabies' squad and playing side this year. Those mentioned, like Ready, Robertson, Arnold, Coleman, Powell, Kerevi and Hodge etc, will add to the strength of the Wallabies in their respective positions over coming years.

My bitch is about the No 10 spot where despite the apparent absence of local competition to Foley for well over a year now, we still are in the situation where overseas based players are being brought in to shore up matters, which will just exacerbate an already unsatisfactory situation by delaying the development of younger players who will likely be in the mix for selection next year or the year after.

Players like Mason and Jooste for the 10 spot. Not that they should start now, but we would get more long term benefit from them being part of the squad now than we'll get from players like Giteau, Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) come RWC 2019 time.

For the time being, I'd be happy with To'omua to be the back up No 10 for this year's RC, and I'd especially like to see To'omua/Kerevi as the 10/12 combination at some time during the RC. Next in line for the 10 spot, when fit, would be Lance. The biggest missed opportunity imo has been not selecting Matt To'omua at 10 for both the Brumbies and the Wallabies during this year (injuries aside).

Generally, I'd like us not to have to rely on players who have opted to play overseas, but to put more time and effort into identifying and developing the next generation coming through the Aus Super Rugby sides. Which leaves me with a conundrum on the wings where we are also pretty sparse on the ground for test standard players atm. I really do think that Rob Horne doesn't fill the bill as a test match winger anymore, while there is debate about whether DHP ought to be at 15 instead of on the wing. I can therefore see some merit in either AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Mitchell filling one spot in this year's RC pending the eligibilty of Naivalu, but it might also be reasonable to put Moahan on the wing until someone better comes along (eg, Naivalu or Speight).

So, the backline I'd like to see during the RC would be 9 Genia, 10 To'omua, 11 Morahan, 12 Kerevi, 13 Folau, 14 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), 15 DHP.

When Foley plays 10, To'omua to 12. When Naivalu becomes available, in for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

But we are talking about the Wallabies - we need to pick teams to win each and every game. If Cheika thinks Giteau & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) are better options than To'omua & whoever else, he should be picking them.

I am not sure if I'm misunderstanding your post BR - but including guys like Joost & Mason in Wallaby squad discussions at the moment is incredibly premature.

 

[Viking]

Joost & Mason have not even played a full super xv game in their life. They should be no-where near a wallabies team. Not even the extended squad. Crack super xv first then they can become part of the wallabies.

Genia came out in the news this week stating how beneficial it was having an experienced player like Gits in the team, on and off the field. What he does at training, and his presence lifts the team. Experienced players are needed for the culture of the team.

I think Gits, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), and Mitchell add to that. Younger players can learn off them.

I would suggest the only player unlucky to miss out and would be important for development would be Ready.

 

[TSR]

To be honest, after last years World Cup I'm not sure how Giteau's value could be questioned. I thought he was one of our best. I can't think of another back who is in genuine contention who is a better defensive organiser.

I guess we do all see things differently.

 

[KOB1987]

So, the backline I'd like to see during the RC would be 9 Genia, 10 To'omua, 11 Morahan, 12 Kerevi, 13 Folau, 14 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), 15 DHP.

When Foley plays 10, To'omua to 12. When Naivalu becomes available, in for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

Which of those is your goal kicker BR?

 

[Joe Blow]

Yes, we went into the England series missing a few key players and then lost Pocock early in the series to compound the problem.
Being able to bring back in Giteau, Genia, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Mitchell is huge, as is having Pocock fit, and will surely pick up our level a notch or two.
All of a sudden we have a pretty decent kicking game and a little more punch in the pack.
I still cannot understand the criticism of Foley. He is always one of our best and he puts in as much as any player in the squad. Without Beale and Giteau there was a huge amount of pressure on him in the last series. He still played very well. With Genia, Giteau, To'omua and Cooper to support him in the RC expect him to play a big part and to remain our first choice 10.

 

[wamberal]

I have criticised Foley because his kicking out of hand is dreadful.


Chubby can rabbit on all he likes about "the Australian running game" but good defences will dominate us if they know we have absolutely nothing else in our armoury than ball in hand.


Foley has his strengths, for sure, but this is a glaring weakness.

 

[Bullrush]

This notion that the Kiwis only pick on form is ridiculous. Guys like Mealamu, Woodcock, Kaino, Nonu and Savea would sleep through Super Rugby, but they'd be picked every year and play like madmen in a black jersey.

They are exactly the same as us, siding with experienced players and occasionally bringing in a form young player when their form is too good to ignore- eg. NMS, DHP.
.

Woodcock and maybe Savea BUT Kaino and Mealamu have always played pretty good Super Rugby and Nonu was actually very good the last few Super Rugby seasons - apart from a couple of suspensions.

I really don't get how Giteau keeps getting selected. There are just as many average players in Australia who can play to his average standards.

 

[neilc]

There was an article in the Hurled talking about succession planning amongst our senior coaches.


According to the article, Bernie Larkham is Chubby's anointed successor.


Really? WTF has he achieved as a coach?


And what about Laurie Fisher?

Totally agree, Larkham was a very skilled player who I believe had very good organisers/callers outside him to direct the play in Kafer originally (who I was told ran the Brumbies backline) and then Gits, allowing Larkham to use his very silky running and passing skills. Great playing talent does not easily translate to good coaching ability, often it doesn't at all and I haven't seen any improvement from the Brumbies backs with him. To'omua on form is a very exciting hard running player, great defender, solid and reliable. CLL has been hot and cold, with injury and form, I've been a bit disappointed in how he has gone because he seemed to have a lot of skill but not sure that it has transferred enough - perhaps it is the game plan. TK is a strong runner but not creative, too one dimensional. Joe Tomane was in great form this year and I would have to say that he definitely seemed to have improved, the others not.

Fisher is a very good forwards coach by all accounts but I am not sure if he is a good all round coach. My understanding of his role at Gloucester is he is the Director of Rugby and has a head coach doing the hands on stuff. Not sure that Australian Super Rugby teams can warrant that role although I think he could probably offer a lot as a forwards/breakdown coach. Sadly we seem to lack any backs coaches of particular calibre at the moment. They don't have to have been a big name player, just someone who can get the most out of the players and develop their skills.

 

[dru]

@ Brumbyrunner

Foley will start. I'd like to see To'omua outside him as second fly. Nether of these guys are particularly strong playmakers, but between cover it, as well as covering pretty much everything else a halves pairing needs (within a conservative backline).

Nor do I think Genia offers anything over Phipps right now. We need him, but he has nothing to demand the run on.

With those changes and presuming we want big boppers, my nack line shapes up simething like this:

9: Phipps
10: Foley
12: To'omua
13: Kaerevi or Kurindrani, choose your flavour
11: Morahan
14: I'm OK with Mitchell or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) if they're OKmin training
15: Folau

22: Genia
23: Gitts

Presuming a 6/2 set up.

If its 5/3 DHP to 23, and Folau plans a shift to 13 in the last 20.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I fully expect both Phipps and Foley to start. I just think we've tried them both for not a lot of consistent performances. At some stage in the RC, I'd like to see To'omua/Kerevi together at 10/12. I can see there is a goal kicking issue if none of Foley, Giteau or Lealiifano are on the ground, but if a game is either well won or wdell lost with say 20 minutes to go, it might not be such a risk to make the late change. Alternatively, Foley could stay at 15, where he has played quite a bit in the past with Folau at 13 and DHP to the wing.

In your favoured backline, I'd certainly have DHP on the wing in preference to one of Morahan or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Mitchell. I think DHP has now established himself as one of the starting wingers for the Wallabies, or No 15.

 

[Scrubber2050]

All this talk about younger blokes, older more experienced blokes is a lot of bullshit

Coach picks the BEST team from the BEST players. No more, no less.

Rugby is no different to all other sports. When the young gun starts outplaying the old dog he gets the gig. Older bloke or a non-performing player gets the dreaded tap on the shoulder.

That is the way it has been and I reckon, will remain.

 

[Mr Doug]

All this talk about younger blokes, older more experienced blokes is a lot of bullshit

Coach picks the BEST team from the BEST players. No more, no less.

Rugby is no different to all other sports. When the young gun starts outplaying the old dog he gets the gig. Older bloke or a non-performing player gets the dreaded tap on the shoulder.

That is the way it has been and I reckon, will remain.

Is that why Sam Carter is out, and Will Skelton is in?!

 

[Viking]

@ Brumbyrunner

Foley will start. I'd like to see To'omua outside him as second fly. Nether of these guys are particularly strong playmakers, but between cover it, as well as covering pretty much everything else a halves pairing needs (within a conservative backline).

Nor do I think Genia offers anything over Phipps right now. We need him, but he has nothing to demand the run on.

With those changes and presuming we want big boppers, my nack line shapes up simething like this:

9: Phipps
10: Foley
12: To'omua
13: Kaerevi or Kurindrani, choose your flavour
11: Morahan
14: I'm OK with Mitchell or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) if they're OKmin training
15: Folau

22: Genia
23: Gitts

Presuming a 6/2 set up.

If its 5/3 DHP to 23, and Folau plans a shift to 13 in the last 20.

Poor choice in words. Given Phipps poor form "right now" Genia can certainly offer more consistent service. He might be a pace slower but his decision making and passing would certainly be better then the current Phipps.

 

[barbarian]

How has Genia's form been in the NH? I'm unwilling to make a call on who is better 'right now' without knowing that information.

2009-2012 Genia would walk into this side, but I'm not so sure about 2016 Genia.......

 

[kiap]

How has Genia's form been in the NH? I'm unwilling to make a call on who is better 'right now' without knowing that information.

2009-2012 Genia would walk into this side, but I'm not so sure about 2016 Genia...

TBF, Genia did walk into the side for the World Cup finals - eight months ago.

Last four starts are 3 and 1. The other bloke is 1 and 3.

How has Phipps' form been as a SH in the SH?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I didn't have too many issues with Cheika's selections for the England series, especially considering who was and wasn't available. Several good prospects got some game time, with most of them looking the part, and the generation change started to happen. It so happened that we ran into a very good England team who had none of our issues.

With some additional cattle arriving for the RC, I think we just let it play out on the training track and pick the 23 we think can beat the All Blacks first and foremost and worry about the rest of it later.