Wallabies 2023

[Braveheart81]

Yeah, I'm not sure it was commitment to the breakdown so much as ball carriers losing the collision and getting isolated.

How many of the breakdown turnovers/penalties weren't just the first arriving player not being cleaned out effectively?

 

[stillmissit]

On the plus side Smi the ABs usually don't commit many to the breakdown either. Probably more than we can handle with our present game plan but not as many or as fiercely as the Bokke.

BR, we are seeing things differently. The AB's breakdown work used to be the smartest in the world with an understanding of what to attack/counter ruck and what to stay out of. I find it stupid to see one of our fwds pushing and shoving a ruck that is lost burning energy for nothing.
SA flooded the first few rucks and blew us away and that got their tails up and they realised they had us, as long as they didn't let us back in the game and came out 50/50 at set piece. 'Lose the Breakdown, Lose the Game'. Old adage but still stands or the cliche 'you can't win the game without the ball' (I would add go-forward ball).

 

[stillmissit]

Yeah, I'm not sure it was commitment to the breakdown so much as ball carriers losing the collision and getting isolated.

How many of the breakdown turnovers/penalties weren't just the first arriving player not being cleaned out effectively?

BH, That was a part of it for sure but the second part was how slow to arrive the cleanout was, also it was pretty ineffectual. It is, like a lot of things in a rugby match, a lot to do with commitment and motivation. There are skills to breakdown work and we have for too long assumed the idiom 'do not over commit' was correct and left it up to a few guys like Pocock, like a shag on a rock too often.
When you look at the breakdown work McQueen's teams did you realise what we lost with Eddie Jones and his 'don't commit to the breakdown, the D is far more important'- madness, I thought that at the time and still do? Add to this 'get the scrum over quickly' and 'don't jump in our 22'.

 

[Braveheart81]

BH, That was a part of it for sure but the second part was how slow to arrive the cleanout was, also it was pretty ineffectual. It is, like a lot of things in a rugby match, a lot to do with commitment and motivation. There are skills to breakdown work and we have for too long assumed the idiom 'do not over commit' was correct and left it up to a few guys like Pocock, like a shag on a rock too often.
When you look at the breakdown work McQueen's teams did you realise what we lost with Eddie Jones and his 'don't commit to the breakdown, the D is far more important'- madness, I thought that at the time and still do? Add to this 'get the scrum over quickly' and 'don't jump in our 22'.

I agree that the cleanout was slow. The later you are, the better the chance the attacking player has already stolen the ball or got themselves locked into a position that is very difficult to clean out.

I definitely include this in my comment about "the first arriving player not being cleaned out effectively".

On attack you rarely get to choose who is doing your cleanouts. Certain players, particularly your number 7 will most likely do more than other players but realistically there is only ever going to be one or two players in a position to make the cleanout. Everyone has to be able to do it because it has to be fast and if you're the guy there, it's up to you.

The game has changed in my view so the days of Macqueen aren't overly relevant in my view. The breakdown laws and the way the game was refereed were wildly different.

Flooding the breakdown really only works now in very limited situations where you can drive right over the ball.

 

[stillmissit]

I agree that the cleanout was slow. The later you are, the better the chance the attacking player has already stolen the ball or got themselves locked into a position that is very difficult to clean out.

I definitely include this in my comment about "the first arriving player not being cleaned out effectively".

On attack you rarely get to choose who is doing your cleanouts. Certain players, particularly your number 7 will most likely do more than other players but realistically there is only ever going to be one or two players in a position to make the cleanout. Everyone has to be able to do it because it has to be fast and if you're the guy there, it's up to you.

The game has changed in my view so the days of Macqueen aren't overly relevant in my view. The breakdown laws and the way the game was refereed were wildly different.

Flooding the breakdown really only works now in very limited situations where you can drive right over the ball.

Agree BH but knowing when to flood the breakdown, when to put 2-3 in there and when to stay out is what we are missing. We went a long time when a few forwards I can think of became permanent pillars or posts.

 

[Braveheart81]

Getting smashed in the contact zone contributes to that massively in my view.

 

[Derpus]

Flooding the breakdown really only works now in very limited situations where you can drive right over the ball.

Didnt they drive us off our ball two or three times in the opening five or so minutes?

Definitely planned.

 

[John S]

Didnt they drive us off our ball two or three times in the opening five or so minutes?

Definitely planned.

Yes, after BOK called "balls out" - we were just steam rolled

 

[Tomikin]

The coaches need to tell Wright that he must kick the ball as opposed to running it from counter the next couple of instances - that dummy kick and go is getting fairly predictable..

I think game awareness we were under the pump on the weekend, so dont think it was that stupid trying to have a crack. Still Rocks and Diamonds though.

Although everyone loves to hate him because he a bit of a dick.

 

[Proud Pig]

We allowed pressure onto our breakdown by White being so slow to try and extract the ball. When you have a big powerful pack against you you need fast ball to try and negate the dominant breakdown. White likes to slow the game and keep the ball as long as he can in the zone which is playing straight into the Boks hands. The Boks are always going to win a few breakdowns because they are dominant in the collision zone. Holding the ball in the zone allows the bigger and stronger Boks to push straight over the top which they did a few times.

 

[Wallaby Man]

Some stats stood out to me in Brett McKay’s article today on the roar. The entire back 3 had 3 kicks all night between them, one each. Which means Hodge had 1 kick all match (not for touch). That’s just not going to win matches in 2022 and indicative that we didn’t play smart enough with the limited ball we did have.

 

[Proud Pig]

Some stats stood out to me in Brett McKay’s article today on the roar. The entire back 3 had 3 kicks all night between them, one each. Which means Hodge had 1 kick all match (not for touch). That’s just not going to win matches in 2022 and indicative that we didn’t play smart enough with the limited ball we did have.

That has to go back to Rennie. That all kicking from hand is constantly through the halves that has to be a team plan and not just the way the game goes.

 

[stillmissit]

We allowed pressure onto our breakdown by White being so slow to try and extract the ball. When you have a big powerful pack against you you need fast ball to try and negate the dominant breakdown. White likes to slow the game and keep the ball as long as he can in the zone which is playing straight into the Boks hands. The Boks are always going to win a few breakdowns because they are dominant in the collision zone. Holding the ball in the zone allows the bigger and stronger Boks to push straight over the top which they did a few times.

True PP but you can't get quick ball when there is one to nobody supporting the runner at the breakdown. Just watched a couple of them in slow motion and it was 3or4 to 2 often and the guy on the deck can contribute nothing apart from ball placement.
Agree about White being slow and Gordon is the same or worse. If they watched Aaron Smith they would know he goes fast when the game is ON and sometimes slow when it ain't. A halfback needs to be game smart but can do nothing with a slow pack not committed to the breakdown. We lost the breakdown 4 T/O's to NIL.

 

[fatprop]

We allowed pressure onto our breakdown by White being so slow to try and extract the ball. When you have a big powerful pack against you you need fast ball to try and negate the dominant breakdown. White likes to slow the game and keep the ball as long as he can in the zone which is playing straight into the Boks hands. The Boks are always going to win a few breakdowns because they are dominant in the collision zone. Holding the ball in the zone allows the bigger and stronger Boks to push straight over the top which they did a few times.

A bit chicken and egg re White

We were splattered in contact making the ball messy and then when we invested more units at the breakdown there were less options to clear to

it isn't surprising White was slow to distribute (we could always revert to "Phipps" like fast clearances and move the pressure elsewhere)

The problem is always the pigs being bossed, when they provide clean ball with minimum units invested, the 9 has an armchair ride. When it isn't presented cleanly, without effective blocking all 9s look shit

 

[Braveheart81]

I think one of the times we had no one to pick the ball up at the back of the ruck and the Springboks stole it was because White had to clear out and no one took his spot.

 

[Derpus]

I think one of the times we had no one to pick the ball up at the back of the ruck and the Springboks stole it was because White had to clear out and no one took his spot.

I hate it when this happens. Surely pro rugby players know how to react when the 9 gets sucked into a ruck rather than just blindly trundling to their pre-assigned spot.

 

[Members Section]

I hate it when this happens. Surely pro rugby players know how to react when the 9 gets sucked into a ruck rather than just blindly trundling to their pre-assigned spot.

this will be something sides will try to start to exploit without hoops, he was very good at playing 9 when needed

 

[Joe Blow]

this will be something sides will try to start to exploit without hoops, he was very good at playing 9 when needed

Both McReight and Valetini do it well. Porecki also.

 

[Members Section]

Both McReight and Valetini do it well. Porecki also.

they kind of just go in when they have to where at hoops always got himself in a position as a just in case then actively looked for the next ruck whether the 9 could get there or not. I'm not trying to mean to anyone & i'm well aware I am point out a 100+ test captains skills lol

 

[Brumby Runner]

True PP but you can't get quick ball when there is one to nobody supporting the runner at the breakdown. Just watched a couple of them in slow motion and it was 3or4 to 2 often and the guy on the deck can contribute nothing apart from ball placement.
Agree about White being slow and Gordon is the same or worse. If they watched Aaron Smith they would know he goes fast when the game is ON and sometimes slow when it ain't. A halfback needs to be game smart but can do nothing with a slow pack not committed to the breakdown. We lost the breakdown 4 T/O's to NIL.

Samu jagged a turnover late in the game but might have been a strip rather than a pilfer.