Why is Tom Carter unpickable?

[Manuel]

Carter is not a bench player - he wouldn't turn a game. He either starts or is out of the 22. And, does anyone really think he could start for the Wallabies?

Someone said that he would walk into any NH squad-I disagree. He'd probably make it into the English squad (and Italian and Scottish obviously), but I don't he'd make it into the squads that actually like passing the ball.

 

[DPK]

Carter is not a bench player - he wouldn't turn a game. He either starts or is out of the 22. And, does anyone really think he could start for the Wallabies?

Someone said that he would walk into any NH squad-I disagree. He'd probably make it into the English squad (and Italian and Scottish obviously), but I don't he'd make it into the squads that actually like passing the ball.

I don't get this sentiment. Even teams that rely on passing heavy backline moves need someone to truck it up. And it's not as though he cannot pass. They can't all chuck it around like QC (Quade Cooper).

I think Carter would sell a crash ball decoy better than any of the inside backs, but not as good as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Ioane. In that respect he's 2nd tier, with Ant Fainga'a.

 

[Torn Hammy]

This is how Carter is used in the Waratahs.

Carter is used as a quick passer or a crash baller who sets up the next phase. This is the reason that his try assists are low.

His strength always gets him over the advantage line and he presents the ball to the following forwards on a platter nearly every time.

His aggressive nature and strong defence intimidate opponents, who often make a handling error or struggle to get over the advantage line.

He runs straight.

You see his true value however, when you go to a game and focus on him and see all the stuff he does off the ball. No, he is not super fast, and no he is not a terrific ball player, but for the qualities I have given he is the best 12 we have.

When I put my no. 12s in order I think of us playing NZ in the RWC final and think about how they will cope with the 12 or so barn storming runs that SBW will aim at them.

 

[Reddy!]

I don't think he is unpickable, but I think there are not enough reasons to pick him.

He has no combination with certain starters like Genia, Cooper or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).
He is slow.
He is not a counter attacking weapon.
He does not bring other players into the game.
He is a specialist.

He has a lot of involvements in a game which brings his stats up, but do they really have an impact?

In my mind he has no chance in hell of making the Wallaby squad this year not because he is a bad player, but because he won't add much to the squad. If I had a house, I would bet it on somebody like McCabe making the squad instead of Tom Carter because McCabe can play wing, fullback, outside centre, inside centre and has probably more impressive stats than old Tom. This Wallaby team is all about versatility, just look at some of the certain players in the 22:

Giteau: 9,10,12 (15 at a pinch)
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper): 12, 13, 14, 15
JOC (James O'Connor): 10, 12, 14, 15
Beale: 10, 14, 15
Ioane: 13, 11
Barnes: 10, 12
Cooper: 10, 12, 15
Fainga'a: 12, 13

Tom Carter: 12

So as you can see, his ability to cover injury for other squad members is very very limited, which is why somebody like McCabe is much better suited to filling a position in the squad. And even though Fainga'a is a centre specialist, he has proven success at both inside and outside centre and a successful combination with Quade Cooper.

 

[daz]

Daz, I think Carter's biggest fault unfortunately is that he probably a shade inferior to Fainga'a, and Fainga'a has a combination with Cooper that works in his favour. In defense they would probably be equal, however in attack Fainga'a is probably slightly more penetrative, and probably also slightly more skillful and quicker. While Carter is physically larger, they both play the same size, if you catch my drift. Considering neither play wing, there is really only one spot to fit them into within the squad due to their lack of versatility.

True. I agree with the QC (Quade Cooper) combo angle and it certainly will help his cause during Wobs selection. I also think that Ant's workrate is higher and delivers greater impact (both in attack and certainly in defense).

 

[Nusadan]

I don't think he is unpickable, but I think there are not enough reasons to pick him.

He has no combination with certain starters like Genia, Cooper or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).
He is slow.
He is not a counter attacking weapon.
He does not bring other players into the game.
He is a specialist.

He has a lot of involvements in a game which brings his stats up, but do they really have an impact?

In my mind he has no chance in hell of making the Wallaby squad this year not because he is a bad player, but because he won't add much to the squad. If I had a house, I would bet it on somebody like McCabe making the squad instead of Tom Carter because McCabe can play wing, fullback, outside centre, inside centre and has probably more impressive stats than old Tom. This Wallaby team is all about versatility, just look at some of the certain players in the 22:

Giteau: 9,10,12 (15 at a pinch)
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper): 12, 13, 14, 15
JOC (James O'Connor): 10, 12, 14, 15
Beale: 10, 14, 15
Ioane: 13, 11
Barnes: 10, 12
Cooper: 10, 12, 15
Fainga'a: 12, 13

Tom Carter: 12

So as you can see, his ability to cover injury for other squad members is very very limited, which is why somebody like McCabe is much better suited to filling a position in the squad. And even though Fainga'a is a centre specialist, he has proven success at both inside and outside centre and a successful combination with Quade Cooper.

He got his hat trick on the weekend playing 13...

 

[International Badboy]

I think TC is a decent player and definately deserves a start in an A game

However i think a world cup year is definately not the year to blood him into a Wobs squad but i heavily support the idea of him going on a European Tour, where the likes of Cooper,JOC (James O'Connor),Beale got their starts, like others have mentioned i think he would do a fine job but can't see him adding to the backline, it is a shame that AUS are producing so many capable backs at the moment, i think QC (Quade Cooper) JOC (James O'Connor) and KB (Kurtley Beale) are definately responsable in a new optimistic scoring points looking style of play etc none of this kick and kick (while it does have its place though) that saw us get our asses handed to us by teams who like to play tight rugby (NH) for me the backline looks like this

9-Genia
10-Cooper
11-Ioane
12-Giteau (i dont like him but i think it will be a Unions version of Gidley in origin)
13-AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14-JOC (James O'Connor)
15-KB (Kurtley Beale)

depending on the bench split
21-Bez
22-A Fainga'a
with maybe Burgess taking the third spot for some security

Discuss

 

[darkhorse]

I'm split on this issue. He clearly doesn't have the X-factor, but as others have noted we need hard-workers and solid players to complement QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) & Beale.

I can see why he has never been picked and not likely to be. However, the current crop of wallabies would be the greatest justification for him to be played.

He is essentially a poor mans Anthony Fainga'a, albeit the more effective.

 

[Richo]

He is essentially a poor mans Anthony Fainga'a, albeit more effective.

Wouldn't that make Anthony Fainga'a a poor man's Tom Carter?

Also, is anyone else curious about whether Tom Carter would perform better than Fainga'a running outside Cooper?

 

[darkhorse]

Wouldn't that make Anthony Fainga'a a poor man's Tom Carter?

Also, is anyone else curious about whether Tom Carter would perform better than Fainga'a running outside Cooper?

Yeah that didn't really come out the way I meant it. It's bit early.

What I meant is Carter seemed to be a poor man's A. Fainga'a, maybe because he had little less glamour. However, looking at those stat's and really thinking about what kind of role A. Fainga'a performs then you couldn't really go past TC if you wanted someone to perform a similar role for the wallabies.

I think TC would have potential outside QC (Quade Cooper), but the combination that A.Fainga'a has already developed with him, means TC will continued to be overlooked.

Edit: Just been listening the podcast and it seems we have the same ideas.

 

[Spewn]

I would only consider picking him if he got rid of that silly foppish hairstyle. I think then his solid straight running and defence would be a useful complement to the attacking weapons in the team. But the hairstyle has to go.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Predictably a lot of the responses to this thread have fallen into the sneering and/or silly category. Another grouping would be those which might be termed UFEO (Unquestioning Faith in the Established Order). There must be a good reason why Carter has never been picked even if we really have to strain to identify it.

On this and previous threads quite a few members draw comparisons between Carter and Anthony Fainga'a, almost invariably to the latter's detriment - "a poor man's Anthony Fainga'a" as characterised above. Let's recast the table to highlight the two players' relevant statistics:

Minutes played: Beale 1196, Cooper 1188, Carter 1110, Giteau 1106, Fainga'a 1057, Mortlock 1054, O'Connor 1016, Mitchell 1006, Ioane 1004, Vuna 894

Tries: Cooper 5, Carter 5, Ioane 4, Beale 4, Sidey 4, Giteau 4, Cross 4, O'Connor 3, Halangahu 2, Mortlock 1, Fainga'a 1

Try assists: Beale 9, Cooper 7, Halangahu 2, Lealifano 2, Sidey 2, Barnes 2, O'Connor 2, Vuna 2, Cipriani 2, Carter 1, Fainga'a 0

Runs: Ioane 133, Beale 123, Giteau 102, Cooper 92, Carter 91, Lealifano 89, Mortlock, Cross 76, Fainga'a 73, O'Connor 65

Tackles bust: Ioane 69, Beale 51, Cooper 48, O'Connor 36, Vuna 36, Giteau 34, Carter 32, Lealifano 27, Mortlock 23, Mitchell 21, Fainga'a 19

Offloads: Cooper 35, Beale 23, Ioane 16, Giteau 14, Lealifano 13, Cross 12, O'Connor 9, Vuna 7, Carter 6, Mortlock 5, Fainga'a 2

Linebreaks: Ioane 15, Beale 14, Cooper 13, Vuna 10, O'Connor 9, Mitchell 7, Mortlock 6, Lealifano 6, Giteau 6, Carter 6, Fainga'a 4

Tackles made: Carter 154, Fainga'a 147, Mortlock 122, Giteau 106, O'Connor 80, Cross 77, Fairbanks 75, Lealifano 71, Halangahu 67, Beale 66

Tackles missed: Vuna 38, Halangahu 26, Mortlock 25, Giteau 25, Cipriani 25, Cooper 23, Fainga'a 23, Mitchell 22, Ioane 21, Lealifano 18, (Carter 14)

Tackle success of Top 10 tacklers (%): Carter 91.7, Cross 87.5, Fainga'a 86.5, Fairbanks 85.2, Mortlock 83.0, O'Connor 82.5, Giteau 80.9, Beale 80.5, Lealifano 79.8, Halangahu 72.0

Pilfers: Fainga'a 3, To'omua 2, Carter 2

Turnovers forced: Sidey 2, Carter 2, Halangahu 1, Mortlock 1, Ioane 1, Fairbanks 1, Cooper 1, Cross 1, Mitchell 1, Fainga'a 0

Long arm penalties: Carter 10, Fainga'a 8, Ioane 7, O'Connor 7, Giteau 7, Cooper 6, Vuna 6, Lealifano 5, Cipriani 5, Mortlock 4

Yellow cards: O'Connor 2, Mortlock 1, Lealifano 1, Vuna 1, Giteau 1, Carter 1, Fainga'a 0

Errors: Cooper 33, O'Connor 24, Beale 23, Giteau 14, Cipriani 13, Mortlock 11, Lealifano 11, Barnes 11, Fainga'a 10, Halangahu 9, (Carter 5)

Form: Beale 54, Cooper 46.7, Sidey 33.2, Carter 31.6, Giteau 24.2, Halangahu 20.8, Ioane 20, Smith 20, Tapuai 19.3, Mortlock 17, Fainga'a 16.3

Total score: Beale 548, Cooper 495, Giteau 442, Ioane 411, Carter 367, O'Connor 356, Cross 241, Lealifano 235, Fainga'a 235

The two have played a more or less similar number of minutes, and Fainga'a has had the distinct advantage of playing outside Cooper, an extraordinarily creative five-eighth. Considering "the combination that A.Fainga'a has already developed with him", can someone point out where his superiority is reflected in the figures above?

 

[Scarfman]

G'day Bruce, you've opened a few eyes with those stats. I agree with you that Chariots is a very decent SupeRugby player. I also think he can play 13 just fine. I've always thought that the centres were a "combination" type of problem, like loose forwards. It all depends on who is inside or outside of him.

However ... he is too slow. Everything at test level is faster and stronger than Super level. That lack of pace pretty much rules him out of contention for me, no matter what an honest toiler he is in many respects.

I assume you disagree?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

His lack of pace is a big handicap at the top level. It could count against Ant in the long run too.

 

[darkhorse]

IMO a 12 often gets left out with the way Cooper plays. My concern for JOC (James O'Connor) & Giteau playing 12 for the wallabies is that Cooper invariably cuts out the 12 or takes the ball to the line. The only time he uses his 12 is when he is in a bad situation or needs some go forward.

However, his cut out passes are made to be what they are only by a 12 that runs good straight hard lines. The 12 needs to occupy the defence and prevent them from sliding across, for Coopers cut-outs to be effective. This is what A. Fainga'a is very good and I think TC could be good at given the opportunity.

Regarding those stats Bruce, they are very good and do highlight TC's ability and strengths. Yet they can't paint the whole picture. I don't think anyone can argue about A. Fainga'a being a more well-rounded player; in terms of speed, agility, skills (catching, passing & kicking) and general playmaking. Carter has improved in all those areas in recent years, but he is still suited to a single role and lacks versatility.

I think Robbie Deans is looking for players who can exploit any and every opportunity that arises during the game. If TC is put in a hole 40 metres outand there is not last man that should be an almost definite try, but sadly with TC it isn't. Sure that situation in itself isn't very likely, but general speed is incredibly important to support play.

What we should take from this is Tom Carter has a remarkable commitment & attitude that means he gets the most out of his ability. This commitment that he displays should be a minimum requirement for Test Rugby. Unfortunately it isn't atm. It's getting better, but I think Robbie is taking the view towards developing the attitude of those with potential.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Bruce, there is a third type of post that you haven't mentioned: one where an opinion was offered based on strengths and weaknesses of Carter vs other candidates. There were quite a few posts done that way and not in a sneering or silly manner. Tom does have a bad haircut though

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Would you have him over Barnes, Giteau or O’Connor at IC?
Would you have him over Ashley-Cooper or Horne at OC?

If not then I do not see him fitting into the Wallabies squad. He does not have the skill-set or versatility to warrant a place on the bench or in the extended squad. McCabe would be the best fit in this role. That’s 6 centres ahead of him before the Carter V Fainga'a comparisons are even made.

On Carter, while he is a satisfactory Super player, I just cannot see him donning a Wallabies jumper. Outside of Sydney Uni I think this is a common thought.

 

[wamberal]

If Carter ever did play for the Wallabies, he would be the worst selection since Rupert Rosenblum. Mmmmmmm. Or Arthur McGill (although, to be scrupulously fair to McGill he was the best of a very bad bunch of fullbacks at the time, whereas Rupert was the only player who failed to reach double figures in his life-time tackle count).


Ed Carter got all the talent in that family.

 

[DPK]

Would you have him over Barnes, Giteau or O’Connor at IC?
Would you have him over Ashley-Cooper or Horne at OC?

For now, Barnes is gone. Next year Giteau will be gone, it's not unforeseeable that neither of them will be available.

Also, this is assuming Deans plays O'Connor at 12, which he has never done before and has said that he doesn't think is ready to play there.

So for 2012, none of those options have the IC position locked up. And for now, Giteau is really the only solid option for 12.

 

[barbarian]

On Carter, while he is a satisfactory Super player, I just cannot see him donning a Wallabies jumper. Outside of Sydney Uni I think this is a common thought.

I think the point Bruce is trying to make is that while no-one would conceivably pick Tom Carter in a first-choice Wallaby 22, there is a double standard applied to him when compared to players like Ant Fainga'a. One is a laughing stock, the other a reliable hardman who is also a Wallaby.

A lot of the responses here have further reinforced that. Part of it is Carter's doing- the haircut, try celebrations and general nature doesn't inspire people to take him seriously. Also he is suffering from people forming an opinion of him three years ago and not being willing to alter that now he is in good form.

I wouldn't have him in a Wallaby World Cup squad, but wouldn't hesitate to bring him in if there were a few injuries. People who say 'he would be the worst Wallaby ever' obviously didn't see him on Saturday where him and Beale were head and shoulders above all else on the field.