2013 IRB Junior World Championship - France

[GaffaCHinO]

Dunno about Hoskins - he's a bit tall to be a THP - or more exactly, for him to be a THP - but let's see how he goes in 2013 now he's a bit older and knows his tall body better.

Not to the point of U/20s or WA bred players, but will Salesi Manu get a contract next year?

From what iv been told he has been locked in for along time to replace maafu thats why he stayed on an eps contract this year. They knew maafu was going last year.

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[GaffaCHinO]

On hoskins i think his height could become a massive advantage to him if he can learn how to use it much like carl hayman.

He has spend alot of time this year training with the force which will only help his game.

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[Hell West & Crooked]

You mean in 2013?

No - he turned 20 in March this year.

Incidentally, he represented Samoa in the 2011 tournament.

For those of us spending alot of time overseas, who is this Skelton Bloke - What's his Story? What is he doing this Season, and does his Rep background with Samoa suggest that this is the way his Senior Rugby will also follow?

Post Note - I found a Forum on this Fellow - Question answered.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Australian Under-20 IRB Junior World Championship squad

Congrats to all the lads.

Three Super Rugby players
19 from ARU National Academy
17 ARU National Gold Squad graduates
Eight from Australian U20s 2012
Six 2012 Australian Schoolboys
Two players with previous U20 experience with another nation
Queensland Reds’ Curtis Browning named Captain
Australian Sevens players were unavailable for selection


http://www.rugby.com.au/News/NewsArticle/tabid/1699/ArticleID/8875/Default.aspx

Hugh... Only 6 2012 Schoolboys - this seems very low to me, given that only 12 months before, these players are at the centre of attention in Junior Rugby in Oz... Do you think this is low? Are there specific reasons for this being the case?

 

[Forcefield]

Last year's team had a fair few 19 year olds I think. I don't think we could match the physicality of some of the other teams in the back 5. I hope they learnt that you are better off with older, more physically developed players.

 

[Braveheart81]

Hugh. Only 6 2012 Schoolboys - this seems very low to me, given that only 12 months before, these players are at the centre of attention in Junior Rugby in Oz. Do you think this is low? Are there specific reasons for this being the case?

Australian schoolboys players are 17 or 18. Junior world cup players are mostly going to be 19 or 20. You're more likely to see more players that finished school in 2011 in the 2013 team than players who finished in 2012.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Australian schoolboys players are 17 or 18. Junior world cup players are mostly going to be 19 or 20. You're more likely to see more players that finished school in 2011 in the 2013 team than players who finished in 2012.

Makes sense... still alot of growth left in many kids between 18 & 20...

It is fascinating to see how many Pacific Islander kids are coming through the ranks in recent years... Good to see.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

HW&C There is a lot that happens with young men in the year after they leave school, as you would be aware.
In 2011 the Soap Dodgers Under 19 (or Academy or some other name) team came down under and played against the then Australian Schoolboys (under 18 years). I didn't personally get to those games but by all accounts it was boys against men in terms of physicality.

Similar for last years schoolboys up against the worlds best Under 20's. Good Under 19s will always be beaten by good Under 20's.

The question in relation to how the Pathway to gold is going would be how many former Aust Schoolboys are in the team, noting that 2011 and 2012 Aust Schoolboys are eligible by Age to be in this years Under 20's JRWC.

I think it is great that 6 of the 2012 Schoolboy alumni have made it and a real credit to them as effectively they are playing a year up.

I shudder to think about who the Darkness are going to name in their team. The likes of Ardie Savea from the Canes are eligible by age.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Interesting comments on the JRWC (and Aust rugby pathways) from Paul Cully in the SMH.

Serfontein's rise is also another reminder of the growing importance of the Junior World Championship, which this year will take place in France in June. It has become one of the highlights of the calendar, granting opportunity and experience to young players on a global stage in a way that league, for example, cannot match. Serfontein was outstanding in last year's tournament (in a back line including the Cheetahs' Raymond Rhule), won by South Africa, and joins a growing list to have first made their names there.

There is a lesson for the Australian Rugby Union here. If you look back at the team sheets for the Australia v New Zealand semi-final in 2011, a game won 37-7 by eventual champions New Zealand, of the 30 starting players that day in Italy, 24 of them have gone on to play Super Rugby (13 on the New Zealand side, 11 Australians). And three New Zealanders have already graduated to the All Blacks (Brodie Retallick, Sam Cane and Beauden Barrett), compared to the sole Wallaby, Michael Hooper, and you could probably pick another four or five future All Blacks from their side from a list including Steven Luatua, Brad Shields, TJ Perenara, Ben Tameifuna, Charles Piutau and Francis Saili.

There is currently a lot of talk about new pathways for younger players in Australia. On recent Junior World Championship performances, especially last year's eighth-place finish, there is room for improvement in one that already exists.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-mustnt-ignore-young-bulls-20130425-2ih79.html#ixzz2RVmttWNi

 

[Rassie]

I take it thes lads are still too honest to collapse a scrum

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The Junior Darkness have been announced. I don't recognise too many names, apart from Savea Junior.
Source: http://www.mooloo.co.nz/news/three-waikato-players-named-in-nz-under-20s/
The 2013 New Zealand Under 20 squad:
FORWARDS
Donald Brighouse (Wellington)
Epalahame Faiva (Waikato)
Nick Grogan (Manawatu)
Alexander Hodgman (Canterbury)
Sione Mafileo (North Harbour)
Kalafi Pongi (Counties Manukau)
Boyd Wiggins (North Harbour)
Scott Barrett (Canterbury)
Jackson Hemopo (Otago)
Patrick Tuipulotu (Auckland)
Christopher Vui (Auckland)
Adam Burn (Waikato)
Joseph Edwards (Auckland)
Jordan Manihera (North Harbour)
Hadleigh May (Otago)
Ardie Savea (Wellington)
BACKS
Tayler Adams (Southland)
Sheridan Rangihuna (Hawke's Bay)
Simon Hickey (Auckland)
Jade Te Rure (Manawatu)
Michael Collins (Otago)
Jason Emery (Manawatu)
Fa'asiu Fuatai (Otago)
Teihorangi Walden (Otago)
Penikolo Latu (Hawke's Bay)
Leroy Van Dam (Auckland)
Lolagi Visinia (Auckland)
Joseph Webber (Waikato)

 

[Honest John]

Dunno about Hoskins - he's a bit tall to be a THP - or more exactly, for him to be a THP - but let's see how he goes in 2013 now he's a bit older and knows his tall body better.

Think you will find that with another year under his belt and training all year with the Force, he will have improved significantly. I was told that he was a standout at the camps and that the U20s front row stocks were looking good this year. With Browning leading I hope that they will be able to set a platform for the team to run hard and set up a better finish than last year. The weather in Brittany will be a factor as no Aus U20 team seems to play well in the wet.

 

[Rassie]

I want to ask a fair question. How can a guy play for one country then play for another country the next year? It really opens the door for cherry picking and how are rugby going to develop in smaller nations if that happens? What if England decide to choose the best players of Wales, Ireland, Scotland and add them the next year to their squad? At the moment some countries are just a development team for some others where their best players are cherry picked and added to their squad.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Rassie there are strict rules at IRB level. In summary if one has represented a National Team or a National Second Team (Australia or Australia A in our case), then that person can not represent another country ever.

Representing the nation at age group (Under 20's) does not have the same limitiations unless there is no second team from that nation.

NZ and Australia have been accused of cherry picking PI players and while this may have occurred to a degree in the past (80's and 90's) most of the PI's in the Wobs and the Darkness were not born in the Islands, and gained all their rugby skills development from NZ or Oz. They are brown faced Aussies and Kiwis. Conversely many of the PI teams at Senior and U20 level have numbers of NZ and Aus citizens of PI extraction playing for them.

We picked up Aussie Mike Harris when he was unwanted by NZ rugby and he eventually became a Wallaby. I suspect that the Lords of Darkness hardly cried foul play when he played for us agains them. It was a win win situation.

Look at the the SH players in ENG, IRE, WAL and SCO who are there because of grandparents or parents lineage. Not a lot of Saffers but there are a few Kiwis, Aus and PI's who have qualified by residency or dual citizenship.

I think it was Shane Howarth from NZ who played a handful of games for the Welsh before the Welsh Grandparent link was proven false.

I can't think of export from NZ, Aus, SAF, or PI who has gone on to set the world on fire in their second NH country after not making it in their own land. Most of the donating countries are generally ambivilant about losing those exports.

John Gallagher (a Pommie policeman who played at 15 for the Darkness in RWC 87 who subsequently returned home to play Loig), and perhaps Tomaci Cama Jnr in the 7's for the Darkness may be exceptions.

Clyde Rathbone perhaps - SAF U20 captain wasn't he?

 

[Jets]

My understanding is that the Aust U20's team will only pick players who are eligible to play for the Wallabies. That's why guys like Junior Rasolea can play for Fiji U20's one year and Aust U20's the next. He is eligible for both as he was born in Aust but has ancestry from Fiji.

 

[Rassie]

Rassie there are strict rules at IRB level. In summary if one has represented a National Team or a National Second Team (Australia or Australia A in our case), then that person can not represent another country ever.

Representing the nation at age group (Under 20's) does not have the same limitiations unless there is no second team from that nation.

NZ and Australia have been accused of cherry picking PI players and while this may have occurred to a degree in the past (80's and 90's) most of the PI's in the Wobs and the Darkness were not born in the Islands, and gained all their rugby skills development from NZ or Oz. They are brown faced Aussies and Kiwis. Conversely many of the PI teams at Senior and U20 level have numbers of NZ and Aus citizens of PI extraction playing for them.

We picked up Aussie Mike Harris when he was unwanted by NZ rugby and he eventually became a Wallaby. I suspect that the Lords of Darkness hardly cried foul play when he played for us agains them. It was a win win situation.

Look at the the SH players in ENG, IRE, WAL and SCO who are there because of grandparents or parents lineage. Not a lot of Saffers but there are a few Kiwis, Aus and PI's who have qualified by residency or dual citizenship.

I think it was Shane Howarth from NZ who played a handful of games for the Welsh before the Welsh Grandparent link was proven false.

I can't think of export from NZ, Aus, SAF, or PI who has gone on to set the world on fire in their second NH country after not making it in their own land. Most of the donating countries are generally ambivilant about losing those exports.

John Gallagher (a Pommie policeman who played at 15 for the Darkness in RWC 87 who subsequently returned home to play Loig), and perhaps Tomaci Cama Jnr in the 7's for the Darkness may be exceptions.

Clyde Rathbone perhaps - SAF U20 captain wasn't he?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_players_who_have_represented_more_than_one_nation

There is the list of some. But it seems like the JWC is a tournament for scouts to cherry pick youngsters to make sure they have enough in the cupboard in future. Some of these countries are basic development teams for others and as soon as they have a couple of players performing they get snatched. IRB is allowing it but its suppose to look after rugby.

I know Australia have close ties with Fiji and it plays the Pacific Island nations more even supporting it playing away. Talent go both ways from Fiji to Australia vice versa. Normally they onnly play for Australia after couple of years. But its ridiculous when a guy runs out for one international team the one year and another the next. Its a farce. This is countries not the EPL or Spanish football league.


I know we lose a lot of players due to the racist quota system and I do not blame any of our youngsters leaving. I would do the same and I am colored! I would never want to play for my country when such things are in place as you would always be called a quota player no matter what you do or how you perform. Imagine implementing it in Australia or NZ? It would be slammed racist!

 

[Rassie]

My understanding is that the Aust U20's team will only pick players who are eligible to play for the Wallabies. That's why guys like Junior Rasolea can play for Fiji U20's one year and Aust U20's the next. He is eligible for both as he was born in Aust but has ancestry from Fiji.

I am not refering to those blokes. They are fine but I am referring to guys not born in that country and represent the country of birth one year next year he runs out for another country. How do you work that out. Imagine lets say O' Connor playing for Australia this year next year he plays for SA. That ain't allowed but its strange that the youngsters who is basically the same its allowed. Its like they are purposely favo... nevermind.

 

[Jets]

Australia won't pick players who haven't fulfilled the residential qualifications for any national team, or at least this used to be the case. I know guys who played qld schools and were told they wouldn't be picked for the Aust schools team as they were in there first or second year of residency.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Rassie the list of players who have represented more than one country in wiki predates the recent IRB ruling I outlined above. During that period apart from residential stand down periods there was little to stop players swapping countries even if they had represented their national team at A or First team level.

In recent times the rule has meant one and one only country, and IMHO this has impacted badly for the smaller Tier 2 nations who in times past could get a passed over All Black or Bokke to play for them once they were no longer needed by the Bokke or the Darkness. Example if Habana is rejected by Bokke, he would be awesome for Kenya 7's, or Namabia (if he met residential or citizenship eligibility.

Aussie Dan "compass" Parkes has had a good career playing for the Single Malts (SCO).
They needed him, we didn't. Win Win.
Is Pocock only allowed to represent Zimbabwe because he was borne there?

I know of a few Aust born and bred dinki di brown faced citizens who have represented a PI team at Jnr RWC as part of their rugby development. They were unable to get selected for Australia (too young in some instances) so they take the next best offer which they are qualified for by virtue of their dual citizenship status. If they are any good, and develop well after experiencing their first jnr RWC as a 18 year old representing a PI nation, they may get selected as a 19 year old the folloowing year for the country of their birth (and residency) - Australia. Nothing suspecious or untoward.

 

[Rassie]

Rassie the list of players who have represented more than one country in wiki predates the recent IRB ruling I outlined above. During that period apart from residential stand down periods there was little to stop players swapping countries even if they had represented their national team at A or First team level.

In recent times the rule has meant one and one only country, and IMHO this has impacted badly for the smaller Tier 2 nations who in times past could get a passed over All Black or Bokke to play for them once they were no longer needed by the Bokke or the Darkness. Example if Habana is rejected by Bokke, he would be awesome for Kenya 7's, or Namabia (if he met residential or citizenship eligibility.

Aussie Dan "compass" Parkes has had a good career playing for the Single Malts (SCO).
They needed him, we didn't. Win Win.
Is Pocock only allowed to represent Zimbabwe because he was borne there?

I know of a few Aust born and bred dinki di brown faced citizens who have represented a PI team at Jnr RWC as part of their rugby development. They were unable to get selected for Australia (too young in some instances) so they take the next best offer which they are qualified for by virtue of their dual citizenship status. If they are any good, and develop well after experiencing their first jnr RWC as a 18 year old representing a PI nation, they may get selected as a 19 year old the folloowing year for the country of their birth (and residency) - Australia. Nothing suspecious or untoward.

I am referring to players who played the one year for a certain country and the next year for another. If you are born in a country and smuggled out when a baby is a different scenario. I am talking about guys who only went to another country for education but still represent their country of birth or shall we say they chose to represent them.

Those representation and rules only apply to senior sides. The IRB sees countries as unions and not countries and currently for players playing in junior sides there is no rules restriction or anything that states what qualification is. At current moment Australia can go shop and get them the best 15 out there no matter if their Japanese, Vietnamese or Tazmanian whatsoever. You can go and cherry pick anyone you want and play them. That is the problem I have.