ARU take over the Western Force.

[Train Without a Station]

And the A-League and BBL both have a 2nd team in Sydney, not at the expense of a Perth team.

In fact the A-League had a Perth team first and a 2nd Sydney team years later.

If you want to talk about competition, would you opt for a city with 1.8M people and only 2 other winter sporting franchises, 600k people
Per team, or a city with 4.3M but 9 teams from a similar sport, 1 team from the same sport and 2 teams from another sport, so 360k people per team?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Groucho, I think moaning would be fair if it was only one team in trouble financially. But right now it's fucking glass houses.

 

[Gagger]

I'm with you until this.

Ultimately, if our W Syd team become 'contenders', it would just be at the expense of another Aussie side. We've got a limited talent pool, and moving the Force back closer to home doesn't change that. The players that the Force are losing out on (due to distance) aren't then going to League, AFL or overseas, they are just going to other Super teams.

They're warehoused in development and clubs in NSW, QLD and to a lesser extent ACT because they'd rather stay and have a shot at those teams then disappear off to Perth. Without a draft you can't move them. This is well recognised by RUPA and the states

I just think this 'more players = victory = $$$ = fans' is a bit simplistic, as the Tahs have shown over the past three years. They have the first two down pat, but where are the fans? Where is the cash?

The Tahs broke even the last few years, the Force are bust.

Even if this team was as bust as the Force, you'd still have better results all round for Australian rugby.

PS - I too don't like the idea of disbanding the Force. I'm just trying to look at the sports biz realities of Rugby in Australia.

 

[Ozee316]

Groucho is right. The only purpose for profits in most unions within rugby is to replenish "rainy day funds". Most aim to break even after distributing funds like a non profit but I do think more commercial acumen would help like what Michael Jones has brought to the Brumbies.

Sent from my SM-A500L using Tapatalk

 

[Train Without a Station]

So there's a shitload of super rugby quality players who'd just rather not be professional rugby players if it means playing for the Force?

 

[Ozee316]

Sydney will get its second team in 2020

Sent from my SM-A500L using Tapatalk

 

[Highlander35]

Can't see that happening.

 

[barbarian]

They're warehoused in development and clubs in NSW, QLD and to a lesser extent ACT because they'd rather stay and have a shot at those teams then disappear off to Perth. Without a draft you can't move them. This is well recognised by RUPA and the states

Maybe. But they aren't in Queensland. And I don't think NSW or ACT really have any concrete cases of quality Super guys being held back on the bench just by circumstance.

But I see your point. But think this is 5-10 guys in reality, not 20 or 30 you'd need to build a competitive squad.

The Tahs broke even the last few years, the Force are bust.

Even if this team was as bust as the Force, you'd still have better results all round for Australian rugby.

PS - I too don't like the idea of disbanding the Force. I'm just trying to look at the sports biz realities of Rugby in Australia.

That I think is what we are aiming for here- a team that loses money, but just not as much as the Force. I agree that is probably achievable.
.

 

[ChargerWA]

That's a massive one Dave. Would force a total rebrand of Waratahs. They can't be 'playing for NSW' any more!

How about

"Playing for the Points*"

*Dawes, Darling and Miller

 

[ChargerWA]

Gagger is right about one thing but wrong about the reason. Our main problem is that we can't attract talent. But it's not geographic. Most people who move to Perth love it. It's the coach. Why would you choose to play for a guy who is going to
A) harm your development

And

B) lessen your chances at higher honours.

To the point where our most promising schoolboy talent in 5 years left to go to the Brumbies where he can study under the Wallabies backs coach (and man I'm fucked off about that, what an advantage to have over us).

For the last 6 years 100% of our coaches have been either Richard Graham or Michael Foley. Talk about the perfect storm of arse raping your chances at success.

The ARU takeover has missed a trick in saying that they won't touch the football program. That's exactly where they need to interfere to make the changes required.

And lastly, it wasn't long ago the Tahs were bailed out by the ARU to tune of a couple of Million. I'd love to see the P&L sheets for all 5 clubs for the last 10 years. I'd bet the Force wouldn't be the poorest performers financially. This just seems like an opportunist attack by the east coast elite using some selective memory.

 

[barbarian]

To the point where our most promising schoolboy talent in 5 years left to go to the Brumbies where he can study under the Wallabies backs coach (and man I'm fucked off about that, what an advantage to have over us).
.

To be fair Foley was offered the Wallaby forwards coaching job by Cheika but turned it down.
.

 

[ChargerWA]

To be fair Foley was offered the Wallaby forwards coaching job by Cheika but turned it down.
.

And that kind of reinforces my point about letting Michael Foley make important decisions about rugby related matters.

 

[barbarian]

This just seems like an opportunist attack by the east coast elite using some selective memory.

Well it is 'opportunist' in the sense that the Force have given everyone the opportunity to have a crack, by losing games and money. You can't say the criticsm is unjustified.

Every Super side has had periods of financial hardship, sure. But they have also had periods of on-field success. The Force, sadly, have not.
.

 

[barbarian]

And that kind of reinforces my point about letting Michael Foley make important decisions about rugby related matters.

I'm not sure you can have a crack at him for that call. Has a family to think about, and I can never begrudge a bloke turning down a gruelling second job he doesn't really need due to family commitments.

Even if he wasn't the Wallabies AC, Bernie would still be Bernie and the Brumbies would still be the Brumbies. I think Jooste would have made the same call either way.
.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Exactly. Gagger's reasoning that "the tahs have broke even for the last few years" is fucking ludicrous logic.

In the best form you can ever hope to achieve you've broken even? Sweet. Let's throw a competitor in your market. That way if you relive 2012, this time it will definitely send you bust.

There's no perfect solution, but what we have right now is probably the best of a bad situation. We don't caniblize ourselves, we have 5 TV markets, we have one that's more appealing to overseas broadcasters that our east coast market and we have pathways in 5 states who are all developing talent.

The only possible way taking the force out of Perth would be an option is if it was part of rationalising to 4 teams. But to me that doesn't make sense either, because it really wouldn't make the others financially stronger.

With $25M more per year in the game surely the short term future of the franchises is secure. If the ARU grants $2M more to each team that's $10M and puts them allow better financial positions. That's probably also more reflective of the value they offer in terms of TV revenue.

 

[barbarian]

An aside- the talk of Super teams being 'bailed out' by TV money is a bit misleading. The TV rights money mainly belongs to the Super sides. It's rightly theirs.

The money has been made off the back of Super Rugby being an attractive TV product around the World. So it's weird we see ARU grants from TV rights money as some sort of charity payment, when in fact it's come directly from the rugby played by Super sides.
.

 

[wamberal]

To be fair Foley was offered the Wallaby forwards coaching job by Cheika but turned it down.
.

So he's a good forwards coach. That's 53% of the job covered.



What about the rest? You know, the excitement stuff that the princesses are responsible for?

 

[Gagger]

Maybe. But they aren't in Queensland. And I don't think NSW or ACT really have any concrete cases of quality Super guys being held back on the bench just by circumstance.

.

This is something I've discussed with RUPA - it's real.

 

[Quick Hands]

Gagger is right about one thing but wrong about the reason. Our main problem is that we can't attract talent. But it's not geographic. Most people who move to Perth love it. It's the coach. Why would you choose to play for a guy who is going to
A) harm your development

And

B) lessen your chances at higher honours.

To the point where our most promising schoolboy talent in 5 years left to go to the Brumbies where he can study under the Wallabies backs coach (and man I'm fucked off about that, what an advantage to have over us).

For the last 6 years 100% of our coaches have been either Richard Graham or Michael Foley. Talk about the perfect storm of arse raping your chances at success.

The ARU takeover has missed a trick in saying that they won't touch the football program. That's exactly where they need to interfere to make the changes required.

And lastly, it wasn't long ago the Tahs were bailed out by the ARU to tune of a couple of Million. I'd love to see the P&L sheets for all 5 clubs for the last 10 years. I'd bet the Force wouldn't be the poorest performers financially. This just seems like an opportunist attack by the east coast elite using some selective memory.

Absolutely 100% correct. You've nailed it CWA.

 

[Quick Hands]

To be fair Foley was offered the Wallaby forwards coaching job by Cheika but turned it down.
.

That's the sad part about it. The guy is a really good forwards coach. He'd be the only Australian born guy that I would let near the Wallaby scrum.

The problem is, he's not a head coach's little finger at the professional level.