NSW AAGPS 2019

[Joker]

St Ignatius 61 (down from 46th) Big drop for the Lane Cove lads. Jesuits would not be happy

As predicted....https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...s/news-story/69333e79f38b9bac7694d74b5bfa5939

 

[Quick Hands]

FFor

From my analysis using SJC results as a benchmark, the Scots process (implemented I recall by M. Blackburn) seemed to show it was designed with only one team in mind. This saw most teams using a style that was being worked upon for the senior 1st and 2nd XV. The Scots program didn't seem to be having the same excellent results in the other grades and age groups as far as I could see. Why is this? I am stumped. Why is it that the 1st XV enjoyed such deserved success for five years and the younger year groups struggled against Joeys? It confused Joeys I know. Each year it seemed Joeys would beat TSC in the 2nd XV, 16A and 15A and then we still lost in the 1st XV. Why? (These theories are explored elsewhere)

When my eldest son started in Joeys in 2011 the results I recall when Scots played Joeys seemed to have only the TSC 1st XV winning (many times I agree) and maybe two/three other teams. This year in the GPS round was much better with Scots winning approx a third of the games. (29 played. SJC won 20, TSC won 9) Most successful age group for Scots was the Under 13's and 14's (four wins in each grade) and the Scots 15C beating Joeys 15F. Scots won no games at all in the Opens and Under 16's (which saw Joeys score 359 points to Scots 26 across five games).

Am I off track here? Happy to be corrected if Scots beat other schools easily. I do not have access to the TSC results archive.

I notice that Joeys play Scots in the last game of the season at Hunter's Hill in 2019. You guys still enforce the bagpipe ban up there? For safety reasons of course

 

[Joker]

FFor

I notice that Joeys play Scots in the last game of the season at Hunter's Hill in 2019. You guys still enforce the bagpipe ban up there? For safety reasons of course

Joeys don't allow tunnels at all. NONE from anyone. The team who played before may line up and cheer the lads on for the next one but not the whole school. The issue has been that the game is held up with students running back to grandstands and the potential of injury in the process. Scots can play their bagpipes from the sidelines as much as they like. I do recall they usually have a piper playing in among the traveling faithful.

Bagpipes = is the sound of cats being strangled

 

[Up the Guts]

Joker, don't forget the impact the IB course has on student numbers at Newington. Almost a quarter of year 12, are dong the IB and this naturally bits into the HSC. Additionally, those students are the most talented and academic ones in year 12. If the IB Didn't exist at Newington, our HSC results would have been very different.

Also, any HSC review needs to assessed against the total number of students a school has in its year group undertaking the HSC. For example I believe Joeys would have about 170 boys doing the HSC. But Knox Grammar might have somewhere between 300-350 boys for the HSC. twice the number so their results can be expected to be greater. The rankings are based on the raw scores and make no reference to year group sizes. I notices PLC Pymble did well. Like Knox they have about 300 students in year 12. In one subject they accounted for 9% of the candidates doing the HSC. Of course they are going to dominate the results. Equally, James Ruse have 7, 4 Unit Maths and Science classes. Hence, these numbers will ensure a vastly better outcome in the HSC rankings.

The league tables are moderated based on the number of candidates at the school. The overall table shows the % of students who achieved band 6s at a particular school not the total number.

 

[Black & White]

Yes and No. The above list is not the moderated one. This one is a raw score, first Past the Post issue. The moderated list, is in fact published after the issue of the first Past the Post list.

In fact, there are numerous lists. Raw Score and Moderated and then ones that include the incorporation of IB Results.

In which case Newington, Kimbala, Trinity Grammar, St.Paul's Grammar and St.Andrews Cathedral are likely to have dramatically different results. Even the Modified list makes no allowances in this matter. Alhtough,I believe some of the IB schools do their own adjustments in this matter.

There are also modified results for Country Schools, whose isolation places them at a disadvantaged. Additional, socially disadvantaged schools, will also feature in modified lists as well. Indigenous students will have their ATAR results modified as well, in situations of perceived disadvantaged. These modifications are not included here either.

So, in essence the apparent moderation of HSC Results, is a contradiction in terms.Its what it doesn't moderate, that places the creditability of the list in doubt.

As one time British Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, stated,once, there are "statistics, statistics and then Damn Lies".

Beware, all these results can be manipulated, to suit to a ones agenda.

 

[Quick Hands]

Joeys don't allow tunnels at all. NONE from anyone. The team who played before may line up and cheer the lads on for the next one but not the whole school. The issue has been that the game is held up with students running back to grandstands and the potential of injury in the process. Scots can play their bagpipes from the sidelines as much as they like. I do recall they usually have a piper playing in among the traveling faithful.

Bagpipes = is the sound of cats being strangled

The sound of the pipes adds to the atmosphere.

 

[Up the Guts]

Yes and No. The above list is not the moderated one. This one is a raw score, first Past the Post issue. The moderated list, is in fact published after the issue of the first Past the Post list.

In fact, there are numerous lists. Raw Score and Moderated and then ones that include the incorporation of IB Results.

In which case Newington, Kimbala, Trinity Grammar, St.Paul's Grammar and St.Andrews Cathedral are likely to have dramatically different results. Even the Modified list makes no allowances in this matter. Alhtough,I believe some of the IB schools do their own adjustments in this matter.

There are also modified results for Country Schools, whose isolation places them at a disadvantaged. Additional, socially disadvantaged schools, will also feature in modified lists as well. Indigenous students will have their ATAR results modified as well, in situations of perceived disadvantaged. These modifications are not included here either.

So, in essence the apparent moderation of HSC Results, is a contradiction in terms.Its what it doesn't moderate, that places the creditability of the list in doubt.

As one time British Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, stated,once, there are "statistics, statistics and then Damn Lies".

Beware, all these results can be manipulated, to suit to a ones agenda.

Joker’s list is the same as the list computed by the Herald and other sources that show the % of entries in a school that achieved a band 6. This means it doesn’t matter how small or large the school is all that matters is the % of band 6s. We can control for all kinds of factors when moderating the results but for the most part students at GPS schools are likely to have the same sort of demographics so it makes for a good comparison.

 

[Freddo Frog]

Joker’s list is the same as the list computed by the Herald and other sources that show the % of entries in a school that achieved a band 6. This means it doesn’t matter how small or large the school is all that matters is the % of band 6s. We can control for all kinds of factors when moderating the results but for the most part students at GPS schools are likely to have the same sort of demographics so it makes for a good comparison.

To an extent. Some schools encourage their students to challenge themselves and take the highest-level courses they are capable of, while others are quite active in making a high number of Band 6 results their priority. The Band-6 approach is a good thing in terms of making the school look very good (because people read these rankings as though they are gospel), and also getting the students a high ATAR. So parents and students go with it because it seems like a win-win.. The school looks great as they get masses of Band 6's in these courses, and the students get a good ATAR because they've completed (very successfully) a lower level course than they were capable of. However this method can be a big challenge post-school, when capable students have been encouraged to complete lower-level courses (i.e. 2-unit maths instead of the 3- or 4-unit they were capable of) in order to blitz the course and get a top result. So Johnny gets a 97, and decides to do bio-medical Engineering because he got the required ATAR, but actually his maths is so far below where it needs to be that he drops out of the course or at the least seriously battles with it. Some of the very high-ranking shools in the Herald have the highest university course drop-out rates.

So yes, it's a comparison of schools, but like any data it can be manipulated so needs to be viewed as just one way of measuring schools and their success or otherwise.

 

[Up the Guts]

To an extent. Some schools encourage their students to challenge themselves and take the highest-level courses they are capable of, while others are quite active in making a high number of Band 6 results their priority. The Band-6 approach is a good thing in terms of making the school look very good (because people read these rankings as though they are gospel), and also getting the students a high ATAR. So parents and students go with it because it seems like a win-win.. The school looks great as they get masses of Band 6's in these courses, and the students get a good ATAR because they've completed (very successfully) a lower level course than they were capable of. However this method can be a big challenge post-school, when capable students have been encouraged to complete lower-level courses (i.e. 2-unit maths instead of the 3- or 4-unit they were capable of) in order to blitz the course and get a top result. So Johnny gets a 97, and decides to do bio-medical Engineering because he got the required ATAR, but actually his maths is so far below where it needs to be that he drops out of the course or at the least seriously battles with it. Some of the very high-ranking shools in the Herald have the highest university course drop-out rates.

So yes, it's a comparison of schools, but like any data it can be manipulated so needs to be viewed as just one way of measuring schools and their success or otherwise.

This isn't what happens though because of the scaling of subjects, a mark of 90 in Ext 2 will scale the same as a mark of 97 in 2u mathematics in some years so there's no material advantage in doing an easier subject over a harder subject given you are capable of doing the harder subject. The ATAR system was constructed in such a way to ensure that the system couldn't be gamed by doing easier subjects.

The idea that students drop out of university courses because they haven't done enough maths is also largely a myth. Most maths intensive courses like engineering require prerequisite knowledge of single-variable calculus (i.e. at least 2u mathematics) while financial and economic courses have reduced the extent they draw upon calculus.

 

[Quick Hands]

This isn't what happens though because of the scaling of subjects, a mark of 90 in Ext 2 will scale the same as a mark of 97 in 2u mathematics in some years so there's no material advantage in doing an easier subject over a harder subject given you are capable of doing the harder subject. The ATAR system was constructed in such a way to ensure that the system couldn't be gamed by doing easier subjects.

The idea that students drop out of university courses because they haven't done enough maths is also largely a myth. Most maths intensive courses like engineering require prerequisite knowledge of single-variable calculus (i.e. at least 2u mathematics) while financial and economic courses have reduced the extent they draw upon calculus.

You'll find it's in General maths where the anomaly lies. Lots of band 6s - something like 80% of students who dropped out of Science/Biology degrees at Macquarie Uni did General Maths.

You'll find that very few courses have pre-requisites as they used to. Often it will be in the 'assumed knowledge' part of the course description. Unis are now beginning to reintroduce pre-reqs in order to prevent gaming of the system.

 

[Quick Hands]

Joker’s list is the same as the list computed by the Herald and other sources that show the % of entries in a school that achieved a band 6. This means it doesn’t matter how small or large the school is all that matters is the % of band 6s. We can control for all kinds of factors when moderating the results but for the most part students at GPS schools are likely to have the same sort of demographics so it makes for a good comparison.

The most accurate predictor of educational outcomes is the socio-economic status of the parents. The government employs as system known as ICSEA (Index of Community Socio-Economic Advantage) to compare schools and also give the % of the school population in each quartile of advantage. A score of 1000 is deemed to be the average.

School/ICSEA/% in top quartile
Grammar - 1286 - 97%
Shore - 1182 - 77%
High - 1180 - 71%
Riverview - 1176 - 78%
Scots - 1167 - 75%
Kings - 1166 - 71%
Joeys - 1132 - 60%
Newington - 1129 - 52%

You'd expect academic performance to broadly match the socio-economic advantage of the parents at eacg school.

All information taken from My Schools website.

 

[Freddo Frog]

This isn't what happens though because of the scaling of subjects, a mark of 90 in Ext 2 will scale the same as a mark of 97 in 2u mathematics in some years so there's no material advantage in doing an easier subject over a harder subject given you are capable of doing the harder subject. The ATAR system was constructed in such a way to ensure that the system couldn't be gamed by doing easier subjects.

The idea that students drop out of university courses because they haven't done enough maths is also largely a myth. Most maths intensive courses like engineering require prerequisite knowledge of single-variable calculus (i.e. at least 2u mathematics) while financial and economic courses have reduced the extent they draw upon calculus.

We will have to agree to disagree. There are absolutely advantages to doing lower level subjects when you can get top marks in them.

 

[Black & White]

Joker’s list is the same as the list computed by the Herald and other sources that show the % of entries in a school that achieved a band 6. This means it doesn’t matter how small or large the school is all that matters is the % of band 6s. We can control for all kinds of factors when moderating the results but for the most part students at GPS schools are likely to have the same sort of demographics so it makes for a good comparison.

This is where we agreed to disagree. I really feel by limiting it to band 6, we don't get a true picture of the overall effectiveness of Teaching and Learning in a particular school.Results in Band 6 are likely to be confined to an elite at the top end of each Year 12 Cohort. A more realistic review in my judgement, would involve an examination of the lower bands.

Some of my greatest successes, as a teacher, were getting student to turn up to class and them to do their assessment tasks on time. I remember one group of Year 12 Ancient History Students, managed to pass theirs exam and I was delighted. Yes, most only achieved low pass results, but compared to there year 11 results, there were a vast improvement.

So to me, education is far more than a particular band result. The HSC is only a stepping stone in life and therefore should not be regarded as the end product, concerning ones education.

Further, what happens outside the classroom, can be as important as what happens within the classroom. So a well balanced education, should include the pursuit of educational excellence, a development of a healthy life style through sport and involvement in Cultural and Musical activities as well as a Social Justice Program.

In other words a traditional independent boys school education.

Oh, yes according to DR Michael Carr Greg and Dr Tim Hawkes, boys brains are still developing and will continue to keep growing beyond YEAR 12 and will not reach their full potential until their mid twenties. I didn't go University until I was 23, turning 24.One of the best things, I ever did in my life.

 

[Up the Guts]

This is where we agreed to disagree. I really feel by limiting it to band 6, we don't get a true picture of the overall effectiveness of Teaching and Learning in a particular school.Results in Band 6 are likely to be confined to an elite at the top end of each Year 12 Cohort. A more realistic review in my judgement, would involve an examination of the lower bands.

Some of my greatest successes, as a teacher, were getting student to turn up to class and them to do their assessment tasks on time. I remember one group of Year 12 Ancient History Students, managed to pass theirs exam and I was delighted. Yes, most only achieved low pass results, but compared to there year 11 results, there were a vast improvement.

So to me, education is far more than a particular band result. The HSC is only a stepping stone in life and therefore should not be regarded as the end product, concerning ones education.

Further, what happens outside the classroom, can be as important as what happens within the classroom. So a well balanced education, should include the pursuit of educational excellence, a development of a healthy life style through sport and involvement in Cultural and Musical activities as well as a Social Justice Program.

In other words a traditional independent school, boys education.

Oh, yes according to DR Michael Carr Greg and Dr Tim Hawkes, boys brains are still developing and growing in year 12 and will not reach their full potential until their mid twenties. I didn't go University until I was 23 turning 24.One of the best things I ever did in my life.

I’d agree there’s more to education than the number of band 6s/ATAR a school produces but at the end of the day that’s the system that the state uses for university admissions so the league tables as they are currently produced are important.

 

[Joker]

Oh, yes according to DR Michael Carr Greg and Dr Tim Hawkes, boys brains are still developing and growing in year 12 and will not reach their full potential until their mid twenties. I didn't go University until I was 23 turning 24.One of the best things I ever did in my life.

I agree. Kindergarten was the best 5 years of my life.

 

[Up the Guts]

The most accurate predictor of educational outcomes is the socio-economic status of the parents. The government employs as system known as ICSEA (Index of Community Socio-Economic Advantage) to compare schools and also give the % of the school population in each quartile of advantage. A score of 1000 is deemed to be the average.

School/ICSEA/% in top quartile
Grammar - 1286 - 97%
Shore - 1182 - 77%
High - 1180 - 71%
Riverview - 1176 - 78%
Scots - 1167 - 75%
Kings - 1166 - 71%
Joeys - 1132 - 60%
Newington - 1129 - 52%

You'd expect academic performance to broadly match the socio-economic advantage of the parents at eacg school.

All information taken from My Schools website.

Yep I’m aware of this and agree that it’s the best predictor. There’s not a whole lot of difference between the GPS schools with the exception of New and Joeys. Of course the data from the My Schools website doesn’t point out how large the wealth gap has to be before it has a statistically significant effect on HSC results.

 

[Up the Guts]

You'll find it's in General maths where the anomaly lies. Lots of band 6s - something like 80% of students who dropped out of Science/Biology degrees at Macquarie Uni did General Maths.

You'll find that very few courses have pre-requisites as they used to. Often it will be in the 'assumed knowledge' part of the course description. Unis are now beginning to reintroduce pre-reqs in order to prevent gaming of the system.

Sydney Uni and UNSW now require at least 2u mathematics for eco/commerce alongside the more traditional maths heavy degrees. There was a loophole with general maths a few years ago but that has been closed in recent years as far as I know.

 

[Joker]

Christmas Jolly's to ponder....an oldie but a goodie.
How many students does it take to change a lightbulb?

Scots College- Three. One to mix the protein shakes, one to turn off the hyperbaric chamber and one to phone the electrician.

Sydney Grammar - Twelve. One to change the bulb and 11 to crack under the pressure.

Kings - Two. One to change the globe faster than anyone in the GPS and one to show him around the school afterwards.

Shore - Sixteen. One to send out the invitations, two to get the beer, one to change the bulb, one to buy Ralph Lauren polos for everyone, two to smuggle the chicks in and one to keep watch for the boarding master. The second eight just need to be ready to back them up.

Joey's - Fifteen. It's not that one's not smart enough, it's just that they're a team and they have to form a line out and get the backs into position.

Riverview - Three. One to put in a formal complaint about the imposition, one to change the bulb and one to make the observation that it isn't half as bright as the light shining from their arses.

Sydney High- The whole school- one to make the ladder, one to make a better ladder, then they can argue about who's ladder is best. Meanwhile, a third person climbs both ladders at once, a fourth one then hands them a globe that they made in science, the musos provide the entertainment for the event, and the rest of the school stand around arguing about who's religion/subculture/political party/footy team/race/denomination is better

Newington College - Fifteen. One to change it and the rest to walk around as if they own the place and talk it up.

 

[Freddo Frog]

Sydney Uni and UNSW now require at least 2u mathematics for eco/commerce alongside the more traditional maths heavy degrees. There was a loophole with general maths a few years ago but that has been closed in recent years as far as I know.

I heard from someone who should know, that a bridging course over summer is enough to get you across the line and into the course even if you did Genny Maths, as long as you get the ATAR.

 

[Up the Guts]

I heard from someone who should know, that a bridging course over summer is enough to get you across the line and into the course even if you did Genny Maths, as long as you get the ATAR.

I couldn’t say whether or not that’s true but you used to be able to enrol without completing a bridging course so it’s a start.