Australia v Italy, Suncorp Stadium, 24th June 2017 @ 3:00pm

[Brumby Runner]

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

And barring a few of us who have a blue, white and yellow eye open, this site is lately filled with whole hordes of blind men.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Larkham also had a wallaby inelegible half back as his first choice scrum half until injury in pre-season. It was stated earlier this season how ludicrous it was that the wallaby attack coach had a wallaby inelegible halves combo..

And it can't be from lack of options, Powell has stood up and performed well in the absence of Cubelli.. so how many other Powells are there in Australia, young flyhalves just waiting to be offered the opportunity..

Australias lack of depth at blindside is a result of years of having foreign blindsides in Australia, even in 2017 I believe we have 3 wallaby inelegible blindside flankers/no.8 in Australian squads, but it was worse in 2015-2016

You're right TOCC. I can't see too many No 10s waiting to be discovered, but I think the situation with No 9s is a lot more promising. We have Powell, Gordon, Louwrens, Ruru, and Roos all playing well at Super level and looking promising for the future.

Just hoping Lealiifano kicks on next year, and that Matt To'omua returns to the ranks in the not too distant future.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Well, I knew at least one person would take my comment this way.

I have no problem people being critical of Cheika, and have been myself - but he does have a comparatively successful record as a coach at super & European levels, he did take us to a World Cup final which I think most would agree was above expectations and he has demonstrated several times he is willing to wear short term pain for long term gain. Also, a lot of his public comments do suggest he is not in denial about the performance of the team and the job in front of them.

I think he is in denial about his own lack of contribution to better performance by the team. Spends a lot of time now putting out excuses, and none of them relate to himself or his immediate assistants.

 

[TSR]

Is that realistic though? Do you really expect any coach to regularly front the media and see 'yep, it's all my fault. I'm shit.'

 

[Brumby Runner]

It doesn't help any team to have some average unit taking up roster space, it isn't like Dan Carter is running round as the import. McIntyre is as good, if not better than the foreign units we have rolling out.

Wow, do we want foreign players or not? It is on record in other threads that the Rebels need to have virtually unlimited access to foreign players to be competitive at Super level. Where does that leave us? If foreign players are a net positive, it should help with the performance of the Wallabies. If not, then what is the good of having the Rebels (or any other side) in Super Rugby if they have to depend on foreign players to be competitive?

This is not a shot at you FP, just using your post as a reference point for the discussion.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Is that realistic though? Do you really expect any coach to regularly front the media and see 'yep, it's all my fault. I'm shit.'

I know even when I'm having a bad year, that's not my opening gambit in my performance review - and I only generally do them once a year.

Don't want to under-sell you TSR, but I suspect there aren't many thousands of people hanging onto any tidbit of performance you can eke out in your job. Not the same at all with the coach of the national rugby team.

 

[TSR]

Don't want to under-sell you TSR, but I suspect there aren't many thousands of people hanging onto any tidbit of performance you can eke out in your job. Not the same at all with the coach of the national rugby team.

Haha - yeah fair enough. Even after I posted it I thought that bit was a bit dumb and didn't really make my point very well.

 

[fatprop]

Wow, do we want foreign players or not? It is on record in other threads that the Rebels need to have virtually unlimited access to foreign players to be competitive at Super level. Where does that leave us? If foreign players are a net positive, it should help with the performance of the Wallabies. If not, then what is the good of having the Rebels (or any other side) in Super Rugby if they have to depend on foreign players to be competitive?

This is not a shot at you FP, just using your post as a reference point for the discussion.

The only foreigners I want are the Dan Carters or Geoff Parlings, quality test players who will actually add tangible. And then, one per position country wide

Not second tier kiwis unable to get a squad start in NZ.
If the option is "development" and signing for O/S, only with ARU approval for the national interest.

But that isn't meant to exclude a guy who has immigrated to Aus and has been playing club\NRC from normal selection.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

yep, all back but I would guess some extras have been created for them

It does amaze me that all the Super clubs aren't more focused on this anyway, much easier to make that tackle or throw a decent pass when you are not blowing

You really have to wonder how they could be so FF (Folau Fainga'a) the fitness pace year after year. It's the one element of the game over which we have complete control and in relation to which we should actually be able to match the ABs. I'd love some more detail from Cheika: my hunch is they don't run enough for a game built in running.

 

[cyclopath]

You really have to wonder how they could be so FF (Folau Fainga'a) the fitness pace year after year. It's the one element of the game over which we have complete control and in relation to which we should actually be able to match the ABs. I'd love some more detail from Cheika: my hunch is they don't run enough for a game built in running.

I remember reading about the strength program approach of the ABs a year or two back - attaining greater power made lasting the distance easier - for example getting through high intensity phases like a few scrum resets or mauls and being "less depleted", or that was the gist I think. The take home for me was it was not all about racking up big running distances per se, although obviously there must be some serious cardio involved too!

 

[KOB1987]

Don't want to under-sell you TSR, but I suspect there aren't many thousands of people hanging onto any tidbit of performance you can eke out in your job. Not the same at all with the coach of the national rugby team.

The only foreigners I want are the Dan Carters or Geoff Parlings, quality test players who will actually add tangible. And then, one per position country wide

Not second tier kiwis unable to get a squad start in NZ.
If the option is "development" and signing for O/S, only with ARU approval for the national interest.

But that isn't meant to exclude a guy who has immigrated to Aus and has been playing club\NRC from normal selection.

Yeah I think that if we need to import players to keep 5 Super teams competitive then unfortunately that is testament to us not having the depth for 5 teams.

If we have 8-12 teams for a domestic comp then importation becomes a different story. That's for another thread though.

 

[fatprop]

Or we go to four teams

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[Inside Shoulder]

I remember reading about the strength program approach of the ABs a year or two back - attaining greater power made lasting the distance easier - for example getting through high intensity phases like a few scrum resets or mauls and being "less depleted", or that was the gist I think. The take home for me was it was not all about racking up big running distances per se, although obviously there must be some serious cardio involved too!

Quite.
It would be nice to know: I've watched Thorn gym videos and read Carter's posts when he's off for 30x 100 ( never done either!) - but seen nothing similar for Wobblies.
It's hard to evaluate the correctness of Cheika's expectation/view without details.
But it sure fits with our super performance.

 

[wamberal]

Or we go to four teams

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Wash your mouth out.

 

[Twoilms]

I remember reading about the strength program approach of the ABs a year or two back - attaining greater power made lasting the distance easier - for example getting through high intensity phases like a few scrum resets or mauls and being "less depleted", or that was the gist I think. The take home for me was it was not all about racking up big running distances per se, although obviously there must be some serious cardio involved too!

Long distance cardio =/= greater performance over short distances. Long runs are great for endurance but detrimental to muscle retention and power. For a game that is about getting through a lot of muscle intensive exercises, running won't help much.

They'd do a lot of high intensity interval training. Burst of high energy exercise followed by short rests.Sprint, pushups, sprint, some obstacle, rest. Repeat.

If it's easier to do the exercise to begin with it will be easier to do it repeatedly so strength helps. They probably do a lot of basic weight lifting as well.

It's simplistic to say rugby is about running so run more. That being said, if they aren't fit enough it's a disgrace. They presumably have a wide variety of different experts helping them, and people achieve professional rugby levels of fitness without any help at all, all the time. Not good enough as per usual.

 

[Quick Hands]

Yep your correct.

Doesn't change the fact he's an international 10 playing for Australia.

He'll never be eligible for the Wallabies just like Grant, Gardon-Bachop or Hawera and their presence is slowing down Aus 10 growth.

No it doesn't. It does, however, highlight the dysfunctional nature of talent identification and player development. He was originally a fully eligible Wallaby, no one wanted him, so he decided to represent Fiji and thus ineligible for Australia, and now an Australian franchise decides to sign him.

This is something out of a Monty Python sketch.

 

[KOB1987]

That's probably a bit too cynical take on it I think QH. The talent ID process got him pretty early on, he wasn't missed. Straight out of Newington I think, and he got a couple of runs off the bench for the Tahs as an U20s player IIRC. Is that right?

He then either failed to capitalise on that or didn't live up to expectations, or a bit of both. He was then presented with an opportunity to play at a rugby World Cup, for a team he would have always known he was eligible for, but not the one he wanted to play for. Maybe he was just being realistic, I reckon I would have done the same thing.

 

[fatprop]

No it doesn't. It does, however, highlight the dysfunctional nature of talent identification and player development. He was originally a fully eligible Wallaby, no one wanted him, so he decided to represent Fiji and thus ineligible for Australia, and now an Australian franchise decides to sign him.

This is something out of a Monty Python sketch.

He wasn't wanted because he wasn't good enough, he still isn't

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[Quick Hands]

That's probably a bit too cynical take on it I think QH. The talent ID process got him pretty early on, he wasn't missed. Straight out of Newington I think, and he got a couple of runs off the bench for the Tahs as an U20s player IIRC. Is that right?

He then either failed to capitalise on that or didn't live up to expectations, or a bit of both. He was then presented with an opportunity to play at a rugby World Cup, for a team he would have always known he was eligible for, but not the one he wanted to play for. Maybe he was just being realistic, I reckon I would have done the same thing.

He didn't measure up as a first choice for the Waratahs, and I've never advocated him for the Wallabies. However, when we release a man in his early 20s from super rugby in favour of foreign journeymen, I think that's a problem for a country which has paper thin depth.

As has been said, it's not as if the Force and the Rebels have been signing Dan Carters or Johnny Wilkinsons.

 

[Quick Hands]

He wasn't wanted because he wasn't good enough, he still isn't

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You'd prefer our super teams to sign guys like Sias Ebersohn?