Reds 2017

[RedsHappy]

^^^^ as I said...
The QRU haven't learned anything.

It seems not.

The biting irony all this is that the only time the modern QRU has successfully rescued itself from a wholly self-inflicted disaster in 2009 was by recruiting talented 'outsiders' as leaders and then letting them hire more talented outsiders to support them and the Reds.

That is, being best-competence, best-credentials driven vs the reckless delusion that QLD has somehow produced a most exceptional rugby creation and rugby talent machine that must be preserved at all costs by internal self-aggrandisement and self-referencing promotion.

In the last decade whenever they have reclined back into their 'wonderful QLD rugby men' insularity it has been little but the harbinger of yet another debacle and period of systemic decline.

Nothing proves that better tragically than the vastly damaging RG period.

And with the new CEO and HC, front and centre has been a vocabulary of descriptors leading with 'QLD rugby DNA' and 'long-standing QLD rugby man' and such like.

 

[Train Without a Station]

RH it's absolutely painful the way some of you take every public quote, generally made at a press conference, guided by marketing principals, as though it is their complete strategy for management of the Reds.

I highly doubt shit like 'QLD Rugby DNA' means fuck all more than wording that pricks the interest of the fanatics.

But the fact is QLD rugby men from QLD who want to work in QLD come cheaper. This is a constraint that all businesses deal with.

 

[gel]

twas it's absolutely painful the way some of you completely ignore the same mistakes being made time and again as if each instance is an isolated case.

The man management department is not where you save your bucks. That is business fact.

 

[Train Without a Station]

What same mistakes are being made?

Graham was a failed HC appointed and re-appointed?

Stiles has coached a team at the level below which lost 1 game in 2 seasons.

Doesn't seem like the same mistake.

They have allowed Stiles to pick his assistants.

Graham had a combination of both to minimal success. Stiles the one he did seem to bring was the most successful though.

The Wallabies have had a history of forcing assistants on coaches with no success.

I don't get what mistakes they are repeatedly making.

You seem to have this attitude that because they stuffed up the Graham appointment and ludicrously kept him that no matter what they do, it's wrong.

Super Rugby cannot compete with European rugby for salaries. That's it. Both for players and for management. Just because Euro clubs are springing upto $1M a year it doesn't mean that the Reds are capable of supporting that.

 

[gel]

They are just picking their mates, and are ignoring others that are more qualified. Running a ruse with terms such as "global search" is just bullshit if the outcome is the same every time.

That's the mistake. It hasn't worked before, and to keep doing it is flawed logic.

The QRU do a lot of things very well, but running a successful super rugby team is not one of them it would seem.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Link was a mate's appointment by McCall. He was sacked from his last job and not renewed the one before.

That worked before.

You seem to think it's realistic that the Reds will attack international quality coaches.

What super rugby teams have done that with coaches that weren't Australian?

The Brumbies with White, the Rebels with McQueen, the Force with Mitchell. All were removed from it when they came back and only one panned out.

 

[The torpedo]

Jesus gel and RH you two seem to have already dismissed Nick Stiles as a shit coach. Give the guy a chance FFS. If he does not get 6-7 wins next year (5 if we have an injury crisis) then you can say we told you so and we will probably all call for his head.

EDIT: What I also expect from the reds in 2017 is 100% effort for 80 mins, each and every game, playing competent, never giving up, pushing better teams, and causing a few major upsets.

 

[gel]

Link had a history of success with the clubs he was involved in, so there's good evidence he wasn't picked just on mate ship.

Coaching a super rugby franchise can and should attract coaches that are on a career progression to international level but they should be near enough to their goals - not ten or more years away (that's twice now you've tried to build a straw man and I'm not gonna bite).

Torpedo - I'm not talking about stiles in particular here. It's that rugbyreg indicated that his support staff have also been found in the carpark of ballymore. It's an indicator that this version of QRU is no different to any that have preceded it.

 

[dru]

Have to agree on two points. The first international search was a farce that did the Reds reputation no good at all. The second international search, imo, and I know there are those who dont agree, but it was emasculated by the belated input, ARU based (aparently) that An Aussie was better. Not for the Reds but for the Wallabies. The word "international" is surely dubious in this scenario.

But Gel, and RH, its unnecessary to consider it all doom and gloom.

This last HC search was the most organised and transparant we have seen at the Reds (wish they had even half of this transparancy at the Force.) Stiles (and MOC) were always going to get a solid hearing. I think that's appropriate, and I think that they chose the right "favoured son".

We would be having diferent but same-same discussions right now with Lancaster, Blackadder, hell even Taylor and Fisher.

And right now, there is absolutely no evidence AT ALL that they did not in fact hire the best bloke for the job.

Nick now calls to fill the holes in his team. Yes I like the concept of big names coming in for this, but I also like the concept of (a) respect for QRU $; (b) Nick calling names he trusts to work with him. God knows we need a bit of that.

There is solid concerns with Nepotism in the recent past. And its a legit concern. This does not now mean that we should be burning at the stake anyone who has parked in Ballymore, simply to demonstrate some fictional meritocracy. Hell why not introduce a quota?

Lets not forget the Stiles has immediately:
x leaned on the ARU/Cheika WBs for support
x locked in access to Mick Byrnes (nepotism?)
And he has sitting for him
x Thorne, cant call that nepotism either
x and hopefully looking to get S&C, which we thought was the best in Aus before the start of last year - and make it so.

I think Reds connect with the grass roots and Premier Rugby far better than anywhere else in Aus. A bright spot even through the RG nadir. Let this be nailed home so coaching has a development pathway as well as our playing talent.

Its not a fast fix with big names. But nor is it papering the cracks.

Time to give them a go.

 

[gel]

Jesus gel and RH you two seem to have already dismissed Nick Stiles as a shit coach. Give the guy a chance FFS. If he does not get 6-7 wins next year (5 if we have an injury crisis) then you can say we told you so and we will probably all call for his head.

there is no excuse for a rugby province like the reds not vying for the finals every year. If they arent then something is wrong.

Your pass mark is too low.

 

[liquor box]

there is no excuse for a rugby province like the reds not vying for the finals every year. If they arent then something is wrong.

Your pass mark is too low.

I agree, I dont know if I am biased to think our players are better than they actually are but when I look through our team list I cannot see a reason why we should not expect to be in the finals.

I think a coach at this level should not be teaching skills (probably should due to our lack of catching ability) but focusing on getting the best out of the skill set already developed by previous coaching.

If our team plays to potential we should expect to win more than we lose.

 

[TOCC]

Dismissing assistant coaches purely because they are from QLD is a little insular in itself, there are plenty of fine and talented coaches throughout the tiers of QLD Rugby, yes nepotism has impeded property coach selection in the past but that shouldn't taint other coaches who may be promoted in the future.

I hate this dismissive attitude that some have developed to grassroots coaches in QLD, there are some bloody hard working coaches with bright futures ahead but that's apparently irrelevant because they are from QLD.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Nepotism, cronyism, favoritism exists at all levels of rugby, in fact all junior sport but lessens a bit, the higher you go.

How many times have we all seen a kid make rep honours because the kids father is a mate of the coach or dare I say it the kid's father is a former high profile player..

Coaches and Assistant Coaches are no different, but as said that lessens.

I think where a Coach comes from is just one factor amongst many, the primary one of course is performance.

Of course a HC should pick his own Assistants. He is the one that has to work with them. Their performances directly affect his.

If the best man comes from Queensland then that is just a huge bonus.

 

[The torpedo]

there is no excuse for a rugby province like the reds not vying for the finals every year. If they arent then something is wrong.

Your pass mark is too low.

gel, I based the pass mark on what would be a reasonable improvement from the past 3 years. I reckon that if we achieve or exceed these goals in 2017, the goal for 2018 is a place in the finals, no less. By 2019 we should be in major contention (i.e. a top 4 side) for the title. What you also fail to take into account is that their needs to be an adjustment year so that Stiles can fully implement his gameplan in the side, and to coach out old habits. Also, Michael Cheika finished 9th in his first season of coaching the tahs. What you have also failed to take into account (and I forgot to mention) is that wins are just 1 part of a pass mark. What I expect from the reds in 2017 is 100% effort for 80 mins, each and every game, playing competent, never giving up, pushing better teams, and causing a few major upsets. There may also be losses which are downright unlucky - i.e. the ref screws us over. I reckon that would be 1 or 2 games where we have bad luck. Another thing is star players (e.g. Moore, Smith, Cooper, Frisby, Slipper, Simmons, Kerevi etc.) all suffering injuries that require them to sit out a game. This would have a negative impact on our performance, which could lead to a loss of the game/s that they are missing.

 

[TSR]

I am always the optimist in the off season, and I see plenty of potential in the Reds roster. Landing Cooper, or an alternate good 10, will be paramount.

On the whole though, one of the things I feel is reason for hope is that, IMO, the Reds problems are able to be addressed. I don't believe that their problem is so much the lack of cattle, but the inability to get the best out of the cattle available.

Firstly - fitness
- discipline. Not just in terms of not giving penalties, but also in terms of working hard in defence, in support and, very importantly, in kick chase which has been terrible by the Reds for some time
- improved kicking game (to come via a better 10)
- better skills & formation in attack. More variety and harder work off the ball. This is where Cooper can really add some value as he appears to works hard to build combinations with other players to bring them into the game

Of course, one of the issues is that I thought most of these issues were equally as obvious at the end of last season, but there was little to no improvement this year.

I am somewhat confused by some of the comments which seem to suggest that super rugby coaches shouldn't have to work on the skill levels of their players as that should be done at lower levels. I would have thought it was quite clear the importance of both. Mick Byrne/Wayne Smith et al are quite clearly on record as saying that they credit a lot of the All Blacks success to key attention to core basic skills and it seems to me this is something that has filtered down in the NZ system rather than be progressively brought up from the bottom.

 

[gel]

What you also fail to take into account is that their needs to be an adjustment year so that Stiles can fully implement his gameplan in the side, and to coach out old habits. Also, Michael Cheika finished 9th in his first season of coaching the tahs. What you have also failed to take into account (and I forgot to mention) is that wins are just 1 part of a pass mark. What I expect from the reds in 2017 is 100% effort for 80 mins, each and every game, playing competent, never giving up, pushing better teams, and causing a few major upsets. There may also be losses which are downright unlucky - i.e. the ref screws us over. I reckon that would be 1 or 2 games where we have bad luck. Another thing is star players (e.g. Moore, Smith, Cooper, Frisby, Slipper, Simmons, Kerevi etc.) all suffering injuries that require them to sit out a game. This would have a negative impact on our performance, which could lead to a loss of the game/s that they are missing.

I disagree with so many points here...

The crusaders don't need an adjustment year.

All teams have injuries. Cruden has had several and a star player - the chiefs still perform. How many flyhalfs did we play through in 2012? We still went OK because Link was another level of coach.

The systems should be in place to allow for that crap tro occur and the team still move forward.

For the last time - this is not about Stiles as head coach. It isn't even about me predicting us to fail next year.

What is about is the Reds once again (apparently) appointing from within a limited circle - a practice that they have repeatedly done and has led to failure. For all the talk about how they have learned their lessons, they have apparently done exactly the same thing (that has failed) that they have previously done before.

I hate this dismissive attitude that some have developed to grassroots coaches in QLD, there are some bloody hard working coaches with bright futures ahead but that's apparently irrelevant because they are from QLD.

That wasn't my point at all.

Will i still go to the matches? yes. Will I still support them on game night? yes. But I am concerned by what is happening at ballymore again.

I hate this dismissive attitude towards history.

 

[Hawko]

Jesus gel and RH you two seem to have already dismissed Nick Stiles as a shit coach. Give the guy a chance FFS. If he does not get 6-7 wins next year (5 if we have an injury crisis) then you can say we told you so and we will probably all call for his head.

EDIT: What I also expect from the reds in 2017 is 100% effort for 80 mins, each and every game, playing competent, never giving up, pushing better teams, and causing a few major upsets.

When you look at the calibre of the players recruited for 2017, 6-7 wins would be a fail in my view. Even if Quade doesn't come on board, they should get 8-9, and if he does then at least 10 wins. Right now, though not a Reds supporter, I expect the Reds to win the conference from the Waratahs or Rebels. Slipper, Moore, Simmons, Douglas, George Smith!, Houston, Frisby, Cooper, Kerevi, Hunt, is the basis of an excellent team. For the record, I think Stiles will make a good coach and has the potential to go a long way.

Every Super team is expected to give 100%, and in my view, effort was not the problem in 2016. Coaching issues, especially in the backline, and a totally hopeless 10 who was persevered with far beyond his use-by date were the fundamental reasons for the poor table position.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I am somewhat confused by some of the comments which seem to suggest that super rugby coaches shouldn't have to work on the skill levels of their players as that should be done at lower levels. I would have thought it was quite clear the importance of both. Mick Byrne/Wayne Smith et al are quite clearly on record as saying that they credit a lot of the All Blacks success to key attention to core basic skills and it seems to me this is something that has filtered down in the NZ system rather than be progressively brought up from the bottom.

I completely agree. Continued poor execution of skills is probably directly attributable to lack of practise and refinement on the training paddock. And if the skill level is somewhat lacking (eg kicking by the No 10, passing and catching by the whole backline etc) then it is essential that the coaching staff address and improve those particular skills. It is a cop out to say that the Super Rugby or Wallabies' coaches don't have a role in improving the skills of the top line players.

 

[No4918]

Close the thread.

Open it for a day when QC (Quade Cooper) signs and then close it again until January.

Or go and argue about who should play 9 & 10 in the rugby champs. That seems like a good use of time and has the added bonus of annoying all the Tahs fans.

 

[The torpedo]

We should just change the subject No4918.

How would this team look?

1. Slipper (c)
2. Moore
3. Talakai
4. Douglas
5. Simmons
6. Tui
7. Smith
8. Houston
9. Frisby
10. Cooper
11. Nabuli
12. Paia'aua
13. Kerevi
14. Laolifi
15. Hunt
16. Ready
17. Fa'agase
18. Thor
19. Neville
20. Korczyk/Gunn/Timu
21. James Tuttle
22. Magnay/Taefu
23. Kuridrani/Jack Tuttle/Banks/Gibbon